Aleix Gabarre

Caitlin Morrissey

What is the DNA of Barcelona?

Aleix Gabarre

Oh, that's a tricky question, because I would say that Barcelona has been struggling with its DNA for a while, trying to understand what is kind of the soul of the city, but especially kind of reconciling itself with the idea that, well, Barcelona's DNA does not follow the same pattern that other cities' DNA, especially I would say that it's a different pattern from English cities or American cities that tends to specialise in something, and they tend to be very good or the best in the world at a specific thing. Barcelona has been struggling for a while trying to find that thing that makes them special and unique.

And what was one of our great findings, actually, the whole process of updating the narrative for the city was realising that actually what makes Barcelona's DNA great is that it's probably never going to be the best in the world at anything, but it's going to be very good at a lot of things. And so it's a surprisingly well balanced city, especially when you put it in the context of major global cities that tend to struggle a lot with that, tend to be very good at certain things, very bad at others, or very good for certain ages, very bad for others. Barcelona, even though, of course, it still has a lot to do to improve on that, is probably much more prepared than other cities to cater to different needs, different ages, different motivations, and to just balance out everything.

And I was thinking about that in trying to summarise a bit that complexity that's inherent in not being good at anything, being good at a lot of things. I was thinking, well, maybe if we can sum it up, we can say that first of all, what's funny is that I would say that Barcelona is a city that's surprisingly fit for the future. And I would say surprisingly, because it's been more or less accidental. But when you look back to the history of Barcelona, of course, you have to look back at Cerda's plan for the city in the 19th century and what of course, that was after the main thing behind just the whole rebuilding of the city and the structure of the Eixample, which is kind of probably the main icon of the city outside Sagrada Familia Gaudi, just the whole way the city is built.

But what's funny is that we were just looking at Cerda and looking at all his theories about what is a proper city. Cerda was heavily influenced by another guy called Philip Monlau. And Philip Monlau wrote a pamphlet that I just lost, just eight pages, but it was written in 1841. So that plan comes from 1860. So it's 20 years prior to Cerda. And what Monlau brought was a pamphlet that was called Down with the Walls. And it was just a way to make the city finally tear down the mediaeval walls of the city that were still in place and were constraining, physically constraining the city. But Monlau went beyond saying, "Oh, we have to tear down the walls because now we will have more space." 

Monlau believed that air, open air was actually the key to quality of life. So in those eight pages he was he goes from "we have to tear down the walls because we'll have more space" to "this will improve the citizens' quality of life" to "this will create economic growth" to "this will create scientific growth" to "this will create an ecosystem for our arts and culture" to "this will bring international visitors" to "this will make Barcelona be able to stand against Paris and London." So in just eight pages, he goes from this very specific thing to this large vision of what cities are supposed to be. And it's amazing to see how this stands today, that you read that and you can see that all the ingredients are there, and it's a mix of quality of life, scientific improvement, arts and culture, international visitors. So everything was there in those eight pages. And I would say that this is actually kind of the start of the modern Barcelona in those pages.

And what's great also is that there's something I didn't know, but I just learned that when Monlau probably started in 1841, the next year in 1842, the city decided by themselves to tear down the walls without asking any permission. And actually what they did was they said to the citizens of Barcelona to bring their own tools for them to tear down the walls themselves, which again speaks a lot about this Barcelona ethos of on one hand, being very collaborative and trying to find ways to make the citizens part of that, but also being very hands-on and very, you would say, almost entrepreneurial in this. Well, nobody's going to do that for us, so let's do it for ourselves. And you can see that on the walls, but you can see that also in many other things, Santamaría Almaraz, physically built by the citizens and the neighbours of the city. And you can see that in many other things, where the fact that Barcelona has almost never had proper public backup created this ethos of "well then we'll do it ourselves", which I think is again one of the key lessons of Barcelona's DNA.

And I would say that probably one of the other interesting things about Barcelona is that it's a city that is not only well connected, but it's also a city that looks out for connections, looks out to what's happening in the world, what's happening in major cities, how can we leverage what's happening outside. And that is still present and still the fact that I think as of now, it's the second city in terms of Congresses and expositions in the world, which is amazing considering how small Barcelona is in comparison with many other cities. And I think that speaks a lot about that character that that comes from a hunger for what's out there and how can we improve on that. But I could be talking for hours. Greg knows this, so I'm just trying to keep it short.

Greg Clark

I'm going to if I may just ask two quick follow ups to what you've just said. So one of them is about the sort of social contract of Barcelona - this idea in 1841 of, you know, tear down the walls, Monlau, that people come to do it themselves. You talked about what that means in terms of enterprise and innovation and bringing international people to the city. What does that mean in terms of Barcelona's social contract? What is the deal for being a Barcelonan? What is it that is the promise of Barcelona for people?

Aleix Gabarre

Yeah, I think we are now interested because I think we are kind of redefining that contract because for a while, I mean, let's back up a bit, I would say that around the last time and say in the early 20th century, the contract was more that this was going to be like a lighthouse for innovation and new developments. And so, you know, a lot of people came to Barcelona attracted for that. And it was like, this is a city that is going to kind of be a lightning rod for a lot of things happening around the world. And here you will be able to experiment on that and you will be able to kind of be free of any constraints because nobody's looking after you, so you can do more or less what you want.

And I think that attracted, of course, that was the main attraction behind Gaudi installing to Barcelona or Picasso coming to Barcelona. A lot of major cultural figures in the early 20th century coming to Barcelona or having a stake in Barcelona for years, just impregnating of that that city that was kind of creating itself, which I think was very attractive. And that, of course, stopped very abruptly with the Franco dictatorship, which essentially turned the city into just a collection of people coming together to work and to produce things. But I would say that after Franco there, especially from the 80s to the early 90s, so the ramp up to the Olympic Games, the way Barcelona emerged again as a city that was very chaotic, but that cause was energising. And again, you could find a new generation of artists and a new generation of writers just using the city as inspiration to try to do new things. And I would say that that energy was part of the regeneration of the city across the 80s leading to the Olympic Games in 92.

I would say that now the contract is being redefined because Barcelona is probably not as vibrant and energising as it was in the 80s, as it was in the early 19th century, but now Barcelona is trying to be a place where people can live well, for lack of a better term. Living well means a quality of air, it means space. It means having access to a lot of public service, public spaces, a place where you can kind of have a good life. Let's put it that way. And by good life I don't mean only in personal terms, but also in professional terms. So being able to have a career while staying in Barcelona and not going to any other city. And that contract is still being redefined and renegotiated because, of course, there are a lot of tensions with gentrification, a lot of tensions with the effect that tourism can have on the city, which again, is something that happens to all of the city. So we're still defining that contract. But that that switch from, oh, a place where you will do amazing things to a place where you will be able to live well and feel comfortable in that city is probably one of the major changes happening now.

Greg Clark

It's very interesting, Aleix, because it begs the question as to whether those two ideas are compatible or incompatible. You might want to comment on that. But the other quick question I wanted to ask was, why has Barcelona had this outward international orientation that you describe? What is the reason behind that?

Aleix Gabarre

I don't know if there is one reason, but I think it is a mix of on one hand, the fact that Barcelona is near the sea creates – I mean, a lot of cities that are near the sea have these artworks. And it's no coincidence that the United States coasts are the ones that have the most progressive cities because they are the ones that are looking out instead of looking inwards. And I think that that's something that comes naturally to a lot of cities. And you have to see what I was saying also that the fact that, again, Barcelona has had to pretty much survive on its own because there was no king in Barcelona for centuries, no big institutions in Barcelona for centuries, made people kind of realise that well, that if we don't do it ourselves, nobody will do it for us.

And I think that is something that connects Barcelona, I would say, to more northern cities than Mediterranean cities, because I would say that a lot of Mediterranean cities have probably a much more traditionally based approach to things, like we want to keep our way of doing things, we want to maintain certain traditions. And it's not that Barcelona doesn't have traditions and doesn't want to maintain that. But I would say that the mentality is a bit more like, oh, I'm sure out there somebody had a great idea if we could just use it. So that I think that that is an interesting mentality. So it's this combination of the geography plus history plus the politics that created this environment.

Caitlin Morrissey

I just want to pick up on a point you made earlier about the kind of collaborative, entrepreneurial spirit of people in Barcelona. And I wonder how would that translate into inventions and discoveries from the city, and what inventions people from Barcelona are particularly proud of, or are there any that have been particularly world-changing?

Aleix Gabarre

What's funny because Barcelona is surprisingly humble about that, like when you look at the history of innovations, you can see some innovations are very amazing. So, for example, I was just looking at the list, that it's great to see that Barcelona built the first general public hospital in 1401, which is like what? And, for example, in the 20th century created the first public blood transfusion service in in 1936, just in the middle of a civil war. The first pedestrian street was in Barcelona in 1951. And so some of those things happen, but they happen kind of very quietly. 

Like I would say that if you ask the average person in Barcelona to name an innovation, they wouldn't be able to name one because Barcelona has never been especially proud of promoting that, which is curious, but also because a lot of the innovations, as you can see, are very community-driven. So it's not like, oh, we created electricity, we did this amazing new invention that changed the world. It's more like Barcelona has been good at building things that serve the community around them. And then some of those innovations have been adopted by other cities. But I would say this is probably one of the reasons why it's a bit difficult to find, like one innovation.

And this is probably why people like Gaudi stand out so much, because he was an outsider in everything, even in terms of creating these iconic spaces, these iconic buildings that were very kind of shocking for not only in terms of how different they were, but because the whole idea of these iconic architecture feel like they're at odds with a city that tends to be a bit more humble, a bit more quiet.

And I would say that a lot of those innovations happen 19th Century, 20th Century. We are now in a moment that's interesting because the whole concept of the super blocks, that is still a work in progress is still an experiment, could be the next step in that. Again, superblock is something that is born out of necessity to serve a community, to serve pedestrians and to serve a reorganisation of the city. But we are now seeing how superblocks are being discussed all over the world. We don't know what will happen to them, we don't know if there will be dissolution or just a step towards something better. But I would say that there is a collective connective tissue that goes from the general hospital to the pedestrian streets to the superblock. That kind of creates a certain narrative.

Greg Clark

This reminds me of conversations that you and I and others have had that in a way, the greatest invention of Barcelona is Barcelona, that there's something to do with a Catalan people who were originally rural and merchants.

Aleix Gabarre

Absolutely.

Greg Clark

Deciding to create a city and then making a city that would be a kind of iconic city in many facets of urbanism. Does that idea make sense to you that the greatest invention of Barcelona is Barcelona?

Aleix Gabarre

Kind of. Yeah, I think Barcelona is not unique in that regard. You can find a lot of cities that kind of build themselves and create their own mythology. New York, for example, the ultimate example of that. But yeah, I think there is this this idea of Barcelona, as I was saying, being kind of burned out by accident or kind of by just people gather around the city and then they have to manage living there. And I think this is something that's probably common to a lot of cities all over the world, that it's just a collection of people that come together. But the particular solution that Barcelona found probably is what makes Barcelona. Barcelona is how they solve the need to organise themselves and to create a society around the city. And this is, for example, when I think the Mediterranean influence is there, I get that solution much more based on quality of life and caring for the citizens is a very Mediterranean approach to things.

But then you've got this influence of I mean, let's remember that for a while, Barcelona has been deeply influenced by Paris and all the kind of construction of Paris in the 19th century, but has also been deeply influenced, I would say not only by London, but especially by Manchester, which of course, in the midst of this revolution was the city. So what is this mix of, OK, we're Mediterranean. But we are looking at French people and then we are looking at English people. So it's kind of this mix. And I would say that indeed, especially starting in the 90s, Barcelona has been looking a lot at New York again as kind of the model of how to build an amazing city that a lot of people love, etc, etc.

And I would love Barcelona to start looking elsewhere. I mean, for example, I'm in love with Melbourne, which I think is a city that has a lot in common with Barcelona not surprisingly, in a completely different environment. But I think the solutions that Melbourne had had a lot in common with the thinking that Barcelona is having. So it's great to see kind of this network of cities that it's not an economic network. It's more like a mindset that that connects the two cities.

Caitlin Morrissey

So Aleix, I wonder if there are any myths or misconceptions people hold about Barcelona and what is the danger or implication of people believing in those?

Aleix Gabarre

OK, that's deeply personal. But I would say that to me, it's probably one is much more widely recognized that although I think that the first myth is, I was saying that Barcelona is a Mediterranean city. It is, geographically speaking it is. And of course, the climate makes it a different city. But I think when we think about major cities, we tend to compare Barcelona to cities that are very different than Barcelona. We look at Greece, we look at Athens, we look at Nice, we look at Sicily. And they are very, very different. And I think it kind of tends to downplay Barcelona a bit by saying, oh, we are kind of the number one Mediterranean city, which I think it's kind of an okay league, but probably not the most inspiring, if you could be. And I would say that I think that just by changing the lens and looking at Barcelona through the lens of major global cities, changes a bit everything and make you realise what is the proper contribution that I can have not only to the Mediterranean, but to the world, but that's deeply personal, that just something that that I feel that we are constantly thinking in the Mediterranean and that might not be the best space to think about.

Greg Clark

I wonder if what you mean, Aleix, is that, as you say, geographically, Barcelona is a Mediterranean city. But intellectually or politically or culturally, Barcelona is not a Mediterranean city. And I suppose I want you to tell us, what is Barcelona intellectually, politically, culturally? Is it a Frankish city, a city of the Frankish Empire, the sons and daughters of Charlemagne and the Catalan idea in the urban setting? Or is it something to do with this international reference saying to France, America, the U.K., Netherlands, what is it that means that Barcelona is not a Mediterranean city, culturally and intellectually?

Aleix Gabarre

It is. I mean, it's a mix. I mean, of course, there's a lot of Mediterranean culture in Barcelona, but it's not what we traditionally think about when we think about moving our own city. I'd say that Barcelona has a lot to do, for example, with Amsterdam. And I would say that Barcelona has a lot to do with cities like Copenhagen, for example, that share this idea of the city as a place where people need to be comfortable enough to grow and to have a good life, as I was saying. But at the same time, both Amsterdam and Copenhagen are cities that are not just like purely residential cities where people just go on leave and retire and have a good time. And they are very innovative. They are constantly trying to find ways to improve. And I think that is part of that Barcelona mindset of having this kind of strange mix between enjoying life as a Mediterranean city, but at the same time constantly trying to improve the city, constantly being dissatisfied with the city and trying to find ways to have that ideal city that is more or less in everybody's mind, although it's probably a different idea for different people. But it's like there's a struggle that we have to do better, we have to do better, we have to do better, that to me connects.

Greg Clark

It sounds like you are describing an appetite and ambition.

Aleix Gabarre

Yeah.

Greg Clark

Aspiration maybe. What's the second myth you were going to talk about?

Aleix Gabarre

Oh yeah. The second has to do with Barcelona as a creative city, because a lot of people, when they go to Barcelona, especially if you think about Barcelona in the context of the Olympic Games and kind of change around the 90s, they say oh, yeah, you're very creative. And actually, we're started thinking about that new narrative for Barcelona. That was kind of a starting point, creativity. And then we say, well, actually, what proof points of that do you have, proof points that are not 30 years in the past or a century in the past? And so I'd say I think that that kind of creativity is a bit misleading, because when people think about creativity in Barcelona, they think probably about the design or the visual arts or and unfortunately, Barcelona is not as strong as it was in that.

But I think Barcelona's creativity is probably not in like a given type of professional working persona. It's more this this hunger for new things and this dissatisfaction with what is happening now. That is that there is some sort of creativity there. But it's not the traditional creativity as in oh, there's a lot of designers here or there's a lot of filmmakers here.

Caitlin Morrissey

And another question we had was to ask if you could pick out a few key leaders from a city that you think could influence, whether that's in cultural spheres or city leadership or looking back even further or more recently, are there a few people that you would pick out as having had a strong influence on the way the city has evolved?

Aleix Gabarre

I mean, I would point out to the first one is, of course, Cerda. Ildefons Cerda, that was kind of the person that really dreamt up the city and really had an extraordinarily modern vision for the city. So I would say that Barcelona is important. Barcelona is because of that. And then, of course, the other big figure is Pasqual Maragall, which was the mayor for Barcelona in the 80s and 90s. And what makes it interesting is that Maragall managed to do something that's very tricky, which is being able to align a lot of different people and organisations around a vision and not making it a partisan thing. So although he, of course, was mayor, came from a political party, but you wouldn't say, oh, that's Maragall advancing the program of his party. It was more oh, that's somebody who's trying to just get the city from what it was to what it wants to be and is creating a lot of alliances in the process. And it's interesting to think about him not only in terms of kind of a visionary, but also in terms of somebody who managed to really bring together a lot of different people with wildly different ideas about the city and creating this common ground to build a vision for the city.

Greg Clark

I predicted you would say Cerda and Maragall.

Aleix Gabarre

Yeah, well, no, because, again, it's tricky to find individuals in Barcelona. It's tricky to find a person that had an amazing impact because, again, it's more shared, a shared project. So these two are probably the ones that really stand out. But you could have a list of hundreds of people that contributed to that and probably did a lot of amazing work, but have been kind of diluted over the history of the city because they were kind of natural born leaders that tend to pop up and become these figures. It's a bit different. It's a bit more like a lot of people that come together, do their thing, but it's almost against the Barcelona DNA to try to be a figure. And when somebody tried to do that, usually, like the citizens tend to react a bit against that. So it's yeah, again, difficult to find out. And that's probably why it's very easy to pick up Cerda and Maragall.

Greg Clark

Why is Barcelona Football Club so successful and how does that in any way relate to the DNA of the city? Hmm. And the second question is this new social contract you spoke about before. Do you think Barcelona will find a way to have this new contract, which also expresses the appetite and the ambition of the city that you spoke about before?

Aleix Gabarre

Hmm. Well, first of all, let's talk about the football club. I would say that what makes the club successful has something to do with Barcelona, although Barcelona has been a purely average football club for a lot, a lot of years, so it's not that the fact that it's in Barcelona make it successful, but I would say that that yeah, that there's a moment where Barcelona realises that actually it's much cheaper, and much more interesting to identify young talent and to kind of grow their own talent within the infrastructure of the club, rather than trying to constantly go after stars and spend a lot of money just for a year or two. And in a way you could say that has something to do with that Do-It-Yourself ethos of Barcelona and of "OK, so we are doing on our own. We are going to get young talent and then kind of shape that talent in a way that fits for the club."

What's funny about that is that this was not a Catalan vision. This was a Johan Cruyff vision. So again, somebody from outside Barcelona that has a great idea and Barcelona says, well, that's a great idea. Let's use it. So that that's funny as coming from Johan Cruyff rather than anybody born in Barcelona. And I would say that this has been kind of the pivotal change because, of course, that happens to cultivate an amazing generation of talent. So all of a sudden, you find that you had a lot of young talent that that was used to play in a certain way and so they could play by memory. Also, there was a lot of interesting moments where players are not looking at themselves, but they all know where everybody is and where everybody is going to be. And that happens where you have been playing together for years and years and years, so that more or less could have something to do with Barcelona, maybe?

And about the social contract, I would say that Barcelona has a great opportunity, has the opportunity to be one of the first major global cities in the world to redefine that contract and to make it work, because a lot of global cities are struggling with the same things and they are all trying to do their best and try to find a solution. But I would say that since this has been part of Barcelona's DNA for a long while, probably Barcelona is in a slightly better position than others to find a solution that works and then become kind of not really a standard to replicate, but it was an inspiration for other cities to look after the Barcelona case study in a way.

And this is starting to happen. I mean, Barcelona is starting to, for example, has a lot of alliances with New York, that shows wildly different cities, wildly different, even kind of amount of people in a completely different. But this kind of alliances are kind of a symptom that Barcelona is trying to fight to become a voice in those discussions and to offer some sort of alternative that hopefully will work for Barcelona and hopefully will be some inspiration for other cities. Yeah, but we were just in the middle of trying to find that.

Greg Clark

Completely agree, Aleix. And this is where Barcelona's so inspiring.

Caitlin Morrissey

When Barcelona looks back on this year and the kind of last five years or so, how do you think history will remember it? And what do you think Barcelona will have learned?

Aleix Gabarre

From the past five years? I would I think that history will remember those years as struggle years, as years where the city suffered a lot. And the city was under a lot of stress and all that was kind of a perfect storm that makes everybody realise the kind of issues that the city had to solve. And hopefully history will remember Barcelona as they managed to solve those issues. But what I would say that those years say five, the last five years have been years of a lot of, oh, we are having this issue and this issue and this issue and we're starting here. So I think now we are past that phase of just complaining about what we don't like about the city, and hopefully we'll be now starting in the phase of, OK, what do we do about that and what kind of solutions do we offer to all those issues?

Caitlin Morrissey

Yeah, so it kind of seems like an important part of the learning process.

Aleix Gabarre

Sure, yeah. I mean, at least – and I think that's very Mediterranean. Mediterraneans tend to learn under stress. When things go wrong, it's when they "oh, we have an issue here!" So kind of difficult to plan ahead, probably that's a very Mediterranean thing too. But at least, there is, that ambition to solve that, to find a way out of all those issues.

Greg Clark

I'm struck, Aleix, that we haven't talked much about Catalonia and Catalanism. I'm not particularly trying to ask you to talk about current separatist philosophies, but more about whether there is anything about Barcelona that makes it distinctive or uniquely a Catalan city. What does it mean to be a Catalan city? I'd love to know what you think about that, because for outsiders, people who are not from Catalonia, not from Spain, it's easy to read a little bit of history and to think you understand that the Catalan people are not really Spanish. They're more, as I said earlier, you know, the sons and daughters of the Frankish Empire and the descendants of Charlemagne and all of this. But what really makes sense in this regard, what is there about Barcelona that is Catalan?

Aleix Gabarre

That's a very interesting question because Barcelona is at the same time, a very Catholic city, and absolutely different from the rest of that, mainly because Barcelona is kind of playing in different league, as I was saying, so Barcelona is looking at major cities around the world rather than looking at the cities around Barcelona. And that can create some sort of conflict between Catalonia and Barcelona because Barcelona sometimes tries to just stand on their own and say, "Look, I'm Barcelona. I could be in Catalonia, I could be elsewhere. I am not trying to be the capital of anything. I'm just trying to be myself." So there is this tension between Catalonia and Barcelona.

But at the same time, Barcelona, I think Barcelona shares certain traits with Catalonia. Probably the two biggest ones are the fact that both Catalonia and Barcelona have had little support from institutions. So whatever they do, they do it on their own. And the second is that hunger for what's out there. Just looking for new things to use or to adapt or to grow. And I think that is coming from Catalonia and for Barcelona. I think in Barcelona in that regard is probably the best example of the Catalonian mindset. But at the same time, it's a different beast. It's very different from a lot of Catalonia.

Greg Clark

Aleix, if we had asked you a good question that allowed you to say something else you wanted to say, what would you?

Aleix Gabarre

Oh, I don't know. You ask a lot of very interesting questions, and I'm – I don't know, probably something about whether Barcelona as a city is different from Barcelona as a brand. I would say that the mental image that we can have about Barcelona does not include all of Barcelona, parts of Barcelona are not this mental image of Barcelona, and a lot of cities that are outside Barcelona are absolutely part of that image of Barcelona. So when we think about Barcelona, Barcelona's reputation and Barcelona as a brand, we have to forget about the city council and the administration of the city. We have to think about the meaning of the city and what the city wants to stand for. And that meaning includes part of Barcelona, but includes a lot of things are happening around Barcelona, and that, of course, is a big challenge when you have to actually do things in the city where you have to make decisions, because the only way to fight against gentrification has a lot to do with cooperation with a lot of cities around Barcelona that have the same problem, because otherwise you will solve gentrification in Barcelona, but then gentrification will move to a city that is just a block from Barcelona.

So gentrification, inequality and anything that has to do with any measure, I mean, of course, climate change and anything that has to do with that is, I mean, it's global, but it's impossible to solve as a city. It has to be, again, an agreement with at least the cities around Barcelona. And that that is going to be a big challenge because cities are managing a different way. And so Barcelona will probably will have to end up creating something similar to the greater London, to the idea of, OK, so here there is a figure, an administration that is able to manage something bigger than the city of Barcelona that has the same issues, that is part of the solution, because I would say that a lot of the solutions to Barcelona's issues are outside Barcelona. So finding the way to cooperate and finding the way to create a structure that works is, I think, part of the of the big challenge that the city has to face in the next year.

Greg Clark

Very good point that, you know, the geography of the brand and the geography of the municipality are complete.

Aleix Gabarre

Yeah, absolutely.

Greg Clark

You made me think of one more question, Aleix. Could you talk about Barcelona's relationship with Madrid, Valencia, Sevilla, Bilbao, the other cities of Spain. To what extent is Barcelona part of a system or a family of Spanish cities. Is Barcelona different or similar to more of those cities? Is there a comfortable relationship of equals and differences, or how would you describe this relationship?

Aleix Gabarre

Oh, complex, let’s leave it at complex, and I think I think Barcelona has a lot more in common with Madrid that both cities would love to realise. In a way you could say that it would be great to, again, create a bridge between Barcelona and Madrid to address those issues because the issues are the same. I would say, though, that the solution to those issues are probably going to be different because. Madrid has two things that are very different from Barcelona. The first is that all the institutions and all the power is there, and that affects any solution because you tend to rely more on institutions rather than on people or private organisations.

And the second is that, I think, Madrid thinks more about itself as the capital of Spain than Barcelona thinks of itself as the capital of Catalonia. So when Madrid thinks about something, they not only think about the city, they think about kind of the whole of Spain and try to use that solution to explore that solution to the rest. While Barcelona finds a solution that works for them and that it tries not really to replicate that in Girona or Tarragona.

And so the issues are going to be the same. It would be great if those cities could talk to each other and could share knowledge and could share insights. But probably the solution is going to be different.