Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Caitlin Morrissey

Ana Elena, what is the DNA of Mexico City?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, it has a lot of components. It’s people first, I would say. Diversity, inclusion, disorganisation, everything is unplanned, informality and great culture, many, many layers of culture and history.

Caitlin Morrissey

What a brilliant starting point. And I’m simply going to follow up by asking you to expand on that and to maybe look, if looking back through the history of Mexico City to understand where some of those traits have come from.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

This is a very complex city. I mean, we can talk about many, many cities in the depth and in the extension. In the depth, can talk about the historical cities. We have first in the territory, actual physical cities, the pre-Colombian or the pre-Hispanic, the pre-Colonial city, Tenochtitlan. It’s there. We see it if you go to the centre. Then we have the Colonial city that it’s still built up. It was part of the Colonial project to destroy one city and build on top. And then on top of that, we have the contemporary city. So those three cities on that are there. And we see them and we live them all the time.

And in terms of extensions, Mexico City is a valley surrounded by volcanoes. So we have many cities because as I was telling you, informality, unplanned, disorganisation. Mexico City in the 1950s grew exponentially and many of these migrants coming from the fields, from the countryside, you know, after the-- many people will kill me if I say this, but I think now it’s the moment to say it. The Revolution didn’t work. The Mexican Revolution was to give the countryside, the fields, the farmers some dignity, but the whole government concentrated in developing the cities and they stopped giving money and support to the farmers. So the farmers started coming to the city in the ‘50s, in the late ‘50s. So Mexico City grew exponentially without any planning.

So you could see that we have many boroughs, no? Mexico City’s many, many, boroughs and every one of them is different. We have historical ones next to the centre of the city when the city started growing up west. We have informal settlements that actually became boroughs and were normalised. So we have a very complex and diverse city for the good and for the bad.

Caitlin Morrissey

This leads us perfectly on to the question, which is how many different Mexico City’s are there? Is there one? Are there many? And I think I know what you’re going to say that there are many, but what is in the tapestry that holds that plurality together?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

It’s people. I mean, I think we are used to living in chaos. We are used to solve the problems as they come. We are used to accept defeat every day on public transportation, on traffic, on being late. Nobody in Mexico City is ever on time because it’s culturally, because also, I mean, you can find so many obstacles in the city, like from the subway not working to traffic, demonstrations, anything, an earthquake, the seismic alarm and you’re late, no? So that’s part. I think it’s people, it’s what holds Mexico together and also chaos, chaos. So we’re used to chaos and we used to live in chaos and to react to it and try to solve whatever comes.

Caitlin Morrissey

I’ve heard a couple of times in the interviews that we’ve had so far that the term survival being applied to describing life in Mexico City, that there are this barrage of environmental reasons, the difficulty of fresh air, the challenges of commuting, the threat of earthquakes, the lake itself or the swampy lake. And this sort of strikes me as resonating with what you’re saying about the surviving, this sort of problem-solving, this problem-solving to survive the city. Does that sort of resonate with you?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Completely, completely. Well, once you leave your house, you’re in survival mode. Anything can happen in the city from insecurity. But I think in the latest years, that is not the biggest issue. But yes, pollution is terrible. The altitude of the city, it’s also a problem. We’re used to it. But for me, for example, every time I leave the city, I mean, even if I go close to here in Mexican territory, every time I come back, it takes me three days to acclimatise again, that my heart stops pounding because the altitude is-- we are really high. So, yes, we’re always in survival mode, but I think it’s part of it’s part of the enchantment. So we have all these stressful parts, but Mexico City in a way, it has everything else.

Caitlin Morrissey

And so what is the promise of Mexico City? Because you’ve mentioned over the fabulous few minutes that we’ve begun this conversation that the people are really at the heart of what makes Mexico City, Mexico City. And so why do people come to Mexico City and what is the promise or the opportunity of the city as you see it?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, Mexico is very centralistic. Everything is within the capital, the federal government, the big offices, the big factories. Also for years, decades, we have tried a project to decentralise everything and send the factories to one place. But the truth is everything is here and in Mexico City’s surroundings. So this idea of thrive, this idea of success, progress, is still on the mindset of many of the people in the states, in the surroundings, the provinces in Mexico. Though we have now big cities such as Querétaro and Monterrey and Guadalajara that are thriving cities, still the idea and the dream to come to Mexico City because you will get better jobs, access to many things, and more opportunities still there.

I could talk about how wonderful Mexico City is and the inhabitants, but the truth is we are a very complex city also in human terms. I could talk from privilege, but I mean the people in the north of the city, the commuting is three hours to get to a place in which they work five hours, and then it’s three hours back in bad public transportation. I wouldn’t say It has improved, but it’s still a long way to go and with so many people, it’s always packed.

Caitlin Morrissey

And you’ve mentioned there this sort of this way of understanding the spatial patterning of the city in terms of north and south. Where does east and west sit in that? Are there other ways of understanding sort of spatial and social patterning of the city?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I’m an art historian, so I’m really bad with directions. I don’t-- I could think north, south. But I think west, I mean, the city had developed unevenly, no? So mainly, if I think the west is in a good direction, mainly the west has been very much informal and growing up without any planning, and it has these big settlements and they had normalised because now there are too many migrants or too many people there. So they become formal and they started having services or have services. So I think it’s a very complex city and every angle it’s different. The historical part is more like in the centre, and well, now the historical part from the latest centuries but if you think of 20th Century heritage, I mean that you can find that anywhere.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you very much. You’ve also mentioned that Mexico City is surrounded by volcanoes and we’ve obviously spoken a little bit about Tenochtitlan and the lake. But what are the prominent geographical influences that have and perhaps continue to shape the character of the city?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean the volcanoes for sure. We still have one, an active one, always with the idea that it will explode someday and some days we wake up with ashes in our cars and in our windows because just the volcano was much too active. And yes, we have the lake, Chapultepec Park that it’s an amazing, it’s three times Central Park. Not now, since forever it has been a very important part of the city, a social part, but also an ecological part, a cultural part of the city. And now, since a few years ago, it extended, so it’s a very, very important part. And we have, you know, different kind of plants there and trees from Mexico. So that’s a very important place of identity and solace in the city.

What else I could think? Of course, not the natural or geographical, but the architectural landscape. As well as the Colonial and the pre-Columbian that I mentioned, the 20th Century city is super important. This idea of Mexican modernism that it’s right there, eclectic and comparing styles, trying to find an identity.

But also in terms of geographical, I mean the seismic failure that it’s underneath Mexico City, it’s something that had shaped our being in Mexico City and the idea of living here and knowing that one day it’ll be the day that we will disappear or the city will come down. And that’s in our minds all the time. But we don’t live.

Caitlin Morrissey

And how does that feeling shape the way that people live in the city? Does it produce a different energy to urban life? Because I don’t, there aren’t-- I think Mexico City unique, certainly in the cities that we’ve looked at, in terms of that just incredible natural threat, in terms of the volcanoes, the earthquakes, the sinking of the city, the seismic challenges you just said.

Greg Clark

Similar to Istanbul. Istanbul is the other city where we’ve really seen that.

Caitlin Morrissey

And how does it shape life, the way that lives are lived in Mexico City?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, I think it’s part of this idea that we discussing at the beginning, survival mode and being ready to face the chaos. And then I’ll tell you something that it’s also Mexican idiosyncrasy, we forget. No, the memory? We forget. Or we tend to forget conveniently, no? We don’t want to see the threat there because-- I mean, I live in an area that it’s Condesa, that it’s right in the middle of the lake. Also, it’s a seismic area, historical, beautiful, walkable, the European grid, great public transportation. But in the 19-- and I’ve been here for 20 years, in the ‘90s, it was my first job in this area. Nobody lived here because in ‘85, we have this huge, huge earthquake and this area kind of disappeared. So I remember that it was kind of the idea of Soho that nobody lived here and artists were taking over. I was working at an art gallery. And then now you see these neighbourhoods thriving with foreigners, immigrants that are coming, no digital nomads. And they forget that this is the area, this is, you know, if you drew across where the danger area is, this is the one.

I keep on saying, and we keep on saying, if we had had already three super big earthquakes since 1985, I mean, everything, our buildings will survive until they won’t. But we tend to forget and minimise the thing with everyday life. The traffic, well, but tomorrow will be a better day. Tomorrow, maybe it won’t be that much traffic. So that’s the mentality in a way, that tomorrow will be better and it won’t be better because we don’t solve the problems that need to be solved, so then decades happen and the metro is insufficient and the public transportation is insufficient. So that’s kind of a mentality that is not very encouraging.

Caitlin Morrissey

I want to take the opportunity to ask you as one of Mexico’s leading curators and art historians, about the nature of creativity in Mexico City. And this sort of feeds into the question we have about Mexico City’s role in Mexico but also the Spanish-speaking Americas and the world, but particularly to ask you about that question through the lens of design and culture and creativity.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, I think it’s amazing and you can find anything, anything in Mexico City, anything. So you need candles, probably go to the centre and find this amazing producer of the candles since the 1930s. You need textiles, if you’re a designer or a creative agent, you can find sources, materials for a super decent price. It’s not like producing in the US or in Europe. So we still have the crafts, the means, the local materials, the informal solutions to produce your project with a small workshop. So you can find everything. Also, you find everything in terms of history. If you want to come here and get inspired, I talked about those three cities, but then we have wonderful museums, amazing public spaces, great 20th Century architecture.

So it’s a city that really, really can inspire you and whatever you see every day is chaotic, but it’s absolutely fantastic. I think those living between-- the balance goes both ways, chaos and catastrophe. But then you have all these fantastic sources that you can find here. And if it’s not in Mexico City, it’s in the outskirts of Mexico City or in a town that it’s really close by. And the good thing is Mexico City is really well-connected. We all the time complain about not having trains or not having more means to move around Mexico. But if you’re in Mexico City, you have buses, the highways to every part of the country. So it’s easy to get somewhere else from Mexico City.

So in terms of the creative people, I think it’s a paradise. And it has been, people ask me, “Well, what do you think about this booming of Mexico City now?” And I say, this has been like this all the time. I can tell you since the ‘30s, that people started arriving here and finding this amazing place and all these sources and all these inspiration, historical and incredible people, incredible food. But now we are more connected. You can see we’re different timetables and speaking about one city. We’re more connected than information, travel faster. So this re-booming of Mexico City, it’s always been like this, always. And you have all these people coming, going, extracting in a good and bad way, but it’s part of the energy of Mexico City.

Greg Clark

Well, Ana Elena, I don’t want to ask you to summarise everything you know in five minutes because that’s a stupid question. But could you say something about the different genres and forms of art and creativity over time and how you see them relating to the fabric of the city? You know, I’m aware of the great tradition of sculpture or I’m aware, of course, of the great tradition of fine art, but also of course film and theatre and so much poetry and literature. So would you just say something about how you understand the cultural genres that have been dominant at different periods and why you think that is?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I’ll tell you, it’s part of a political project that was created after the Revolution. When the Revolution finished, that was a civil war and the north was confronted with the south, with the centre. What the new regime did was create a project of national identity, homogenise everything, which now we’re struggling with. As we have many cities, we have many Mexicos. The south is nothing to do with the north. The cultural idea and creating this project of national identity, what made is homogenise all of Mexico. All of us are equal. We have the same identity. And art, the arts was part of that. And they actually created a whole ecosystem in which to hold Mexican idea based on the Indigenous past, the heroic Indigenous past, before the Spaniards came and like these warriors and this really proud Mexico, we call them Indigenism. So it was portraying in paintings and murals the people as Indigenous with dark skin saving the country or trying to build a new civilisation with new values. Now, you know, after the Revolution triumphant, but up to today, we still struggle with that. We live with that. And that was part of the cinema from of the ‘40s, the charros and Adelitas, this heroic moment of Mexican cinema in which, you know, the charros is like Mexican cowboys, romanticising the countryside, the farmers, as well as literature and poetry. So all of this was part of this ecosystem of building a national ideal and a national idea of the arts, of Mexicans through the arts. And that involved everything.

And it was a good thing in terms of the regime really supported that. They, for example, they created these exhibitions that they worked-- it was a model of exhibitions that travel abroad that were called X Centuries of Mexican Art, also 20 Centuries of Mexican Art, 30 Centuries of Mexican Art, depending on when they did it. And it was-- so the exhibition started with the pre-Colonial times, the big sculptures, the big monolith, the brutal Aztec city. And then it went to Colonial art. And then it went to folk art that it’s super important in Mexico. This idea of craft that is still alive, it’s part of the history, but it’s still alive. And then we have 19th Century painting. And then, of course, you have the 20th Century with this idea of national identity.

But that was a model that was created and up to today is still replicated by many. And between that, you have poetry that refers to the national or to the landscape or to the romanticising this idea of Mexico. So we have all these many layers. And since I think mid-20th Century, we’ve been trying to escape from the weight of the pyramids, I would say, this idea of the national identity and trying to become global, but understanding where we stand and the value of the territory and the history. And that’s been a rough path. Though it’s beautiful and it’s amazing because we have all these things and that model could help us display a lot in terms of exporting culture, in terms of really understanding who we are and how can we use what we were in a good way, it’s still hard.

Greg Clark

And if I may, Ana Elena, one of the things I think you just said is that cultural production was in a sense a deliberate action encouraged by political elites, encouraged by the state. And Mexico City as the capital city of Mexico had a particular role in projecting a kind of Mexican nationalism. But there’s been a shift towards Mexico City promoting a kind of cultural pluralism, a globalism, a cosmopolitanism. And you identified that shift being a kind of 20th Century shift, if I understood. Did I get that right? And then what’s been the drive towards promoting this more cosmopolitan proposition?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, I see many things. One of them is groups of immigrants, foreign artists, designers, writers that come to Mexico and help us see ourselves in different ways. So I have nothing. Now it’s starting a big movement that people don’t want so many foreigners here. And I think we always have them since the ‘30s. And they help us. They’re like a mirror. They help us to see ourselves. One is that.

Another thing is many Mexican professionals go and study abroad. And when they study abroad, they realise the richness and the complexity of Mexico. So when they come back, they understand that they have to move differently. And that it’s very important.

Also, I mean, internet has changed the game a lot. We have so much information now. It’s not only this idea that we are the great Mexicans and being isolated. So there’s a moment now that we need to be connected. And also, think in the late ‘80s, early ‘90s, we signed this NAFTA treaty with the United States and Canada for free trade. And that has been very important because I mean, we produce for the United States in a way that was really good because it had given many jobs, many opportunities. In another way, we stopped being a creative producing country and we became a manufactured one, which is a very sad thing. And I think with Trump now in power, we’re going to start suffering that, but it could be an opportunity, I think, to realise that we cannot buy from China anymore. And then we have to produce ourselves again. If we see that opportunity, I think there’s light at the end of the road. But I think NAFTA was fundamental as well. And these exchanges, this cross-pollination, either from Mexicans going abroad or immigrants coming to Mexico.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much, Ana Elena. I wanted to ask you about Mexico City’s world-changing inventions, innovations and discoveries. And implied in this question is a sort of bigger question about whether you see Mexico City as being a place where innovation and discovery thrives and whether this is a place where discoveries are made and world-changing innovations are produced. And if so, what are some of those? And they can be from any realm, culinary, artistic, music, theatre, any sort of realm that strikes you.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, I think there are many, many that we can’t even count. So the first thing that popped into my mind when you asked this and when I read the question was the tortilla machine. The tortilla machine was invented in Mexico by a Mexican. But it’s not to make tortillas in a mechanical way, not in like the press that we use or the wooden press or the metal press. So there’s a mechanical tortilla machine that was invented here. And every time I pass through a tortilleria, I say, that’s one of the greatest inventions and designs of Mexico City. But if you see it, it’s kind of informal. It’s very Fordian, the line of production. And you have the tortillas there, and then they go to the oven. So it’s fantastic. And we have many things like that.

Mexico is also a city that informality-- and I talked about informal settlements, informal markets, informal sellers, everything. One-third of the jobs in Mexico City are informal. So imagine that. Sellers on the streets, things like that. So there you can find tons of solutions of everyday problems that they solve. And it’s really incredible to go down the street and see how they’re solving, putting their stall on the market, or the taco places, the plates that are in order for them, as they are in the street, not to wash the dishes, they use a piece of paper with decorations or things like that. So this informal creations and innovations that are informal, but are innovations, I think it’s very typical and very characteristic of Mexico City.

But I also think of, for example, in terms of engineering. After the ‘85 earthquake, it allowed many foreign engineers to come and experiment in Mexico to see if they want to build in the seismic area, in the lake area, these high rises, how deep they have to go, how the systems underneath the ground have to be in order to respond to the earthquake. So for example, that was an innovation as well. I remember this huge building, La Torre Mayor, it’s a building from the mid-‘90s and it has like the most innovative anti-earthquake system at the time. And for example, the earthquake, the earthquakes have allowed engineers to change the systems and the legislation in Mexico City to build high rises or tall buildings.

So I think, yeah, and in terms of artistic innovations, also you see a lot of people like Francis Sallis, taking inspiration from the streets of the Centro Histórico from informality and making comments with his work and trying to understand the city he lives in and how that could be solved. So I think we have many, like from very small ones that we kind of lose sight to the high rises and the tortilla machine.

Caitlin Morrissey

And the mention of these informal improvisations in a way strikes me as being relevant to something you said earlier which is that this is a problem-solving people who are trying to get from the minute you leave your door, you’re just trying to get by so that sort of strikes me as fertile ground for innovations of all sizes to take place.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Completely. So you see innovations everywhere, but we don’t know where to take them or get a patent or really not focus on really thinking that that is innovation. I mean, you were talking about food. So what’s happening with food in Mexico, it’s really incredible because-- and I’m going to quote that because I’m crazy this week about Bad Bunny and his new album, which I think is something to take into account what is happening in all of Latin America. He’s going back to the roots, to the old rhythms, to the aesthetics of Puerto Rico from the ‘70s and ‘60s, using musicians from the time. So going back to history, but in a very respectful and joyful way and bringing it to the present with his rhythm. And for example, that’s what’s happening with food in Mexico. Enrique Olvera, Elena Raygadas, and now a new generation of chefs are looking back, not copying, but looking back, analysing the raw materials and bring it to the present. And it’s still the super comfort, amazing cultural Mexican food, but with a new hint.

So I think, for example, for Latin America, that’s the way to do it. We are very much aware and scared now of these ideas that American academia had brought to us about cultural appropriation. So we stop doing things. And I think we have to find better ways of doing that, going back to the past, make that that it’s ours, that it’s part of our identity, really digest it and then produce something new such as Bad Bunny. I think it’s a great example and the whole project, you him having a resident in Puerto Rico and taking the world to Puerto Rico, it’s going to be a game changer for the island.

Greg Clark

Ana Elena, if I may, there’s something very important in what you just said that I think has come through in two or three of your answers. But I think you are describing some kind of new self-confidence that in the culinary scene people are willing to look back, to review, to take again and to bring forward. In the artistic scene and the music scene, the same thing. It sounds to me like you’re describing a very confident, creative milieu that wants to use everything that’s available historically and geographically. Firstly, is that right? And secondly, is that confidence new in the way I perceive you to be describing it? And if so, what’s brought that on?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Yes, I haven’t thought of that, but I think it’s right. I think we were very much the first part of the 20th Century, we were very much reflected on the north. We compared ourselves to the US and everything. We wanted everything like the US and we wanted the US products, the US history, the US artist, everything.

I think since the 1980s, it was the seed of rethinking how we see ourselves. We have a couple of artistic movements, things happening there. Politically as well, in the ‘80s, the left party was created and they started governing Mexico City. This really big movement to leave the only party that had ruled us for 80 years behind and try to find a new democracy. I think it’s part of this new self-confidence that yes, we have the states, we know they’re there. Yes, of course, many people, as we are seeing now, have fled to the US in a search of better opportunities. But we’re also finding that those opportunities are here. And we need to find a path artistically, inspirational, culinary, in terms of design. So I think there’s a self-pride now what we are, and we’re trying to take out these problematic things of the past and the complex past that we have, being conquered or being taken by a colonial nation, and how we deal with that.

I think that it’s more open now. We talk about that more with no fear or with less fear, maybe. But I think that’s very important. And it’s part, I think, of a political process, getting rid of that party that make us think the same way and that we were all the same bulk of people. And we’re not. We’re different people. And I think different ideas, and I think that’s very important.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much, Ana Elena. And when you think about leadership in Mexico City, are there individuals that stand out again in any realm as having been sort of profoundly important in shaping the character of the city? Are there quiet leaders that you’d wish to mention who perhaps don’t get the recognition? Or is leadership in Mexico City more of a collective endeavour, and are there groups and movements that you would point to as being sort of influential in some way in shaping the city?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I think Mexico is a city of individuals. Mainly the individuals and the leaders are the ones that shape things around and then you have groups. The movements, the groups, maybe shaped by the feminist movement in the last 10 years, it’s a new thing. Like really organised groups. But I think leaders, individual leaders have been very, very-- maybe because the, you know, the kind of history we have. The generals in the Revolutions and the casiqués also, maybe it’s because of that. Mexico City has been a city of individual leaders, that then they get together and maybe put a group together, but there’s always someone ahead. And I think with this survival mode in Mexico, it’s very important to have these silent leaders. And as I was telling you, I live in this neighbourhood that is Condesa, and now it’s getting very much gentrified. And we have a group of neighbours that are leaders, Mario, Ramon, they are there, fighting against the historical houses being torn down or the public spaces being taken out.

And those small leaders are very important in Mexico City for our survival term, for our survival mode and survival way of living. Someone to look up to and that can help you guide in the way, even if it’s to create some public space in your neighbourhood or to plant something that you need to be planted or to march on the 8th of March with the women.

I think in terms of artistic mentions, I don’t know, people like Cuauhtémoc Medina in the art world have been influential and very important. A curator that has shaped a lot of what we see and how we see it. In terms of music, in terms of pop music, we had so many leaders talking about Mexico City, a guy named Rodrigo from the 1970s that died in the 1985 earthquake, that wrote all these songs, rock songs about Mexico City. Sergio that wrote this, Sábado Distrito Federal. Mexico City was before called the Federal District. And he wrote this amazing song talking about the chaos of a Saturday in Mexico City, going to the market, seeing that, seeing this museum, this rough group trying to get into the subway.

We have many political leaders that were really influential in creating this political idea of the city. Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas, that it’s the son of General Cárdenas that was very important in the Revolution and was president of Mexico in the ‘30s. But he was the one that actually led the left in the ‘80s to create a new movement.

And we have, I mean, now we have all these women, you know, in Mexico, not only in Mexico City, but all of Mexico, less in Mexico City, I would think, but it’s still, we have a great problem of people disappearing. That we don’t know if they were killed, they were kidnapped, but really strong. And then we have all these, we call it seeking mothers, Madres buscadoras, that are looking for their children and finding them sometimes in like these deep graves, public graves or hidden graves all over the-- and some of those have become very important leaders in terms of gender, but also security, making visible the security situations that we are living.

Because it’s true, I mean, I could talk, I’m a big fan of Mexico City, that’s why I live here, though I have the opportunity to leave many times. But I love living here because of the energy and what I’m describing. But it’s true that we have many, many problems. I mean, yesterday I had no water for 12 hours. So the water is also an issue. And I live in a privileged area. There are areas in the city that they don’t actually have running water. So we have many problems. The security is a thing. The drought. The lack of water, the lack of air, it’s a thing. I don’t want to romanticise, but it’s, as I was saying the balance.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much. When you think more broadly about the songs that are sung about Mexico City or the songs that are written about Mexico City or the stories that are told, is there anything common about the sort of energy that those songs or stories are trying to capture? Or what do these songs or stories or poems reveal to us about Mexico City itself?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

The unexpected. The unexpected. From the everyday to the earthquake to-- the stories, we have a long history of literature written in Mexico City about Mexico City, all by men, actually. A friend of mine was doing a research on novelists that wrote about Mexico City, and she realised that there were no women, so it’s weird. They were writing about Mexico City, but mostly men, maybe one women I could think. But the unexpected, no, just finding around the corner an armadillo in the street or a burglar or the earthquake or the volcano. And the sons talk about that, so you go to a party and it’s the most amazing party you ever been ever and met the most amazing people. So Mexico City is that, the unexpected.

Caitlin Morrissey

And just out of curiosity, what were Mexico City’s female novelists writing about while the men were trying to encapsulate the city in their work?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Madame Bovary kind of thing. Love, personal crisis. Though we have, also now that I think I could think of two Mexican female novelists or writers, Elena Poniatowska and Elena Garro, both Elena’s, talking about Mexico City at some point. But yeah, they were mostly in an introspective journey.

Caitlin Morrissey

That’s really fascinating. We also have a question here about common misconceptions that you might encounter about Mexico City and what those might be?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Crime of course, that everybody’s a criminal and everybody is going to rob you. It’s not true. Mexico City people are like super gentle, super-- if you ask for directions, they will even take you to the place, and they don’t want your wallet or anything like that, or not even a tip. They just do it because they love people visiting the city.

That Mexico City people are uncultured or uneducated. So now that, so you take an Uber, you take a taxi, people have knowledge, not the knowledge about maybe culture, but if you talk to them about politics, now everybody in Mexico is super politicised as in the world, I think. But if you talk to them about football, they know everything, soccer, they know everything about the Mexican league and Cristiano Ronaldo and what’s happening in the UK league and everything. Mexico City people are very knowledgeable. And I don’t know if it’s because also they spend so many hours in the traffic, they can hear now podcasts, radio.

So it’s really interesting how you think, ‘come to Mexico City and people still ride donkeys and they wear sombreros and they take tequila and that everything in Mexico City is tacos.’ It’s not.

Also, we have a super refined gastronomy. I’m so joyful. When I was little, we never ate at Mexican-- there were no Mexican restaurants, like the high-end restaurants, no Mexican restaurants. You ate Mexican food, real Mexican food in your house. And whenever you needed to go out, you had either the Italian or the French, mainly French. But now you have all these great Mexican restaurants, Mexican chefs going back to the past, working with Indigenous cooks, female cooks to try and recover and understand tradition and bring it to the present.

Because one thing I do believe is tradition is not static. Tradition is innovation. If you do not innovate, tradition becomes history. So I think that’s very important. And you could see it in design now, in architecture. I think the main fields are architecture and the culinary scene, where you can see this transformation of the past into the present and understanding the realms of being Mexican and Mexican ingredients being clay or being plants.

Greg Clark

One of the recent projects that we heard a lot about, especially from Gabriella, our mutual friend, Gabriella Gómez-Mont, who, by the way, is my neighbour here in North London. One of the projects we heard a lot about was the creation of the new constitution of Mexico City, the CDMX initiative. I think it would be very interesting just to ask you whether this act of creating a constitution was primarily something that interested the political class or whether it actually meant something for the creatives, the cultural people, the artists and others? Does it mean anything outside of politics?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Completely. And the creation of Mexico City, not the federal district as well. I mean, we take it for granted. It happened 20 years ago, 15 years ago, but it had given us rights that we didn’t have. And it’s crazy to say that in Mexico, in such a big city as Mexico City, we didn’t have any rights because it was not a federal state. It was the capital. A federal state, but it didn’t have a constitution or nothing to hold itself juristic in terms of laws. So it was very important. And also the laws and rights that we gained with that and have shaped a lot of what is happening in art, what is being discussed in culture. Mexico City was the leader on abortion, on gay marriage, on many, many, many, many things that now we take-- thanks for asking that because we take for granted that. And we’d call it, or the propaganda call it the City of Liberties, but it really is. Also these things that in Mexico, a Catholic country, it was unimaginable to have that. I mean, now we’re used to it, and it’s true, it has shaped a new way of thinking and of addressing things in culture, in theatre, in the political movements as well.

Caitlin Morrissey

What is the future of Mexico City as you see it? And how will everything that we’ve been talking about in terms of its DNA sort of shape and condition that future?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, it could be scary. I’m talking about the lack of water, that it’s something real. Though we are in a lake, the lack of water is true. And it’s a threat that it’s here. I mean, just this example, yesterday, 12 hours without water. And that’s something that it’s kind of scary. I think all the problems could be solved, but it takes a lot of energy, political lobbying, and I don’t know if that would happen. So Mexico City needs a lot of changes in terms of policies, but also political leadership. I don’t know now, but I would say probably you know better than me, we have more than 20 million people. And that’s difficult to even imagine.

In terms of creativity, I think we’ll be thriving and producing every day more and more people will come and understand the fascination of Mexico City and all these layers and all these opportunities because it is a city of opportunities. But I’m biased, you know, because we could have a great creative future and the future is here because I told you we have all these sources and the craft and in terms of creativity, you can produce everything for even half the price of whatever you can do somewhere else. And we’re well-connected if you want to send it to an exhibition or an opera or wherever.

But in terms of natural resources, we’re not that well. And we have grown so fast, so unplanned, that it’s really difficult to keep up with what’s happening in Mexico City. I mean, I think the next 50 years, it’s a challenge. And that’s why I think Mexico City needs a shift on the political view, not someone that it’s more, that really sees not for the vote, and to get into power, but really want to transform the way this city is growing and is developing.

Caitlin Morrissey

Is the sort of ecological and environmental threat, are you saying that that isn’t always sort of at the top of political debate or discussion?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Not at all.

Caitlin Morrissey

Wow, that’s so fascinating.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Not at all. No, no. I mean, when this part, when this new head of the government came in, so we were discussing that really, created the newspaper, created a timeline, and they say that we have eight months of water in the wells that surround Mexico City, in the presas, the water reservoirs of Mexico City. It was every day we had 30 days left. At the end, it rained a lot so we were safe. But they didn’t do anything. Though we knew that there was this countdown, they didn’t do anything, anything significant and a game changer thing that you need to do, especially with the water is terrible because there are places in the city that they don’t have running water so they have to walk several blocks to get, bottled water. One of the ridiculous new policy of the head of the city was, okay, we’re going to create this place in which people, I think it’s the northwest of the city, they can come and get this water that it’s called Agua del Bienestar. Now everything ‘bienestar’ – it’s a word that it’s like welfare. It’s a word that this new government, this government is using for everything. The welfare bank, water welfare, whatever. So they are going to give away water. Imagine that. Water bottles to the people instead of really creating a policy of get not pipes, running water for everyone. And how are we going to think about the reservoirs of water? So it’s not, you know, this party, especially they’re thinking of boats and how to consolidate their power and stay here forever and making business. And they’re not thinking, especially the ecological. And we see it in Mexico, I mean, what happened in the south, in the Mayan area, they created this train that is not working. They destroyed half of the jungle that was, it was one of the most amazing jungle, the Mayan jungle. They destroyed half of it for the sake of creating a touristic train that is not even working. So it’s really sad that they are not seeing what is happening and the risk of climate change and environmental issues.

Caitlin Morrissey

This has been so fascinating. But is there anything else that you would want to say as part of this conversation that you haven’t had a chance to already, if we’d have asked a different question, perhaps?

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

I mean, I think one thing that we have left behind in the conversation, but it’s also because we leave it behind is, so we have many cities, but also in between those many cities is the Indigenous city that it’s still alive and it’s still there. We have around 14 original towns, original cultures in Mexico City, and they’re still there, living among us in different neighbourhoods. They still produce their craft, their food, their everyday thing. And some way that has been in the craziness, chaos of Mexico City, and we kind of forget. I know there’s a whole movement of recover that and restate that and rethink of the original cultures that were the founders of Mexico City, and they’re kind of invisible now, but they’re still there, and it’s living cultures. So I think that’s another important thing that we need. We, the inhabitants of Mexico City, need to think about and cherish and understand how we are going to make them part of this present and this uncertain future.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much. This has been an absolute privilege to speak with you this morning, think Mexico City time this late evening, this late afternoon for us. And I just want to say on behalf of Greg and I, an enormous thank you to you for saying yes to this invitation and for taking the time. What a tremendous hour it’s been learning from you.

Ana Elena Mallet Cárdenas

Thank you very much. And thank you very much for reaching out. It’s very important for all the inhabitants of Mexico to have a voice of what’s happening and what we think. So thank you very much.