Dr Danièle Hromek

Caitlin Morrissey 

So I thought, Danièle, that a good place to start would be to ask you about your relationship to Country and to ask you about your Country?

Danièle Hromek 

Yeah, of course happy to. So I'm descended from the Dhurga and Dharawal speaking peoples from the south coast of New South Wales, that's sort of south of Sydney. I don't live on my Country. I live in Sydney, I was born here and have a strong relationship here and many of my relatives are in Sydney. There's obviously strong and historical marriage and travel and trade lines between people from Sydney and the south coast. So we all are related to each other. And certainly, there's different understandings of relationship to Country for Aboriginal people. So you know, there's the place where you have a bloodline connection to, which for me is the south coast, then there's the place that, you know, you were born and grew up in. So for me that is in, in Sydney on Gadigal lands here. And then there's places that you might have been moved to through colonial activities. And so my family were removed to the mid-north coast, and around Gumbaynggirr Country as well. So I have different connections to places. I guess that's a fairly typical story for Aboriginal people that have about how we express who we are. But I identify with the Budawang / Murramarang / Moruya tribes on the south coast.

Caitlin Morrissey 

With your work on cities and in the built environment, how did you sort of get into that and what prompted your doctoral work on Re-Indigenising the Built Environment? Can you tell us a little bit how you got into that?

Danièle Hromek 

Yeah. I came about things in a conventional way, I guess. I was living overseas and had been running a small business in London, actually, I have European heritage as well, and went over to explore that heritage and got stuck there, as a lot of people do in London. I got very sick and had to come home. In amongst that I was like, 'What am I doing? Why aren't I living, you know where I'm connected to?' and it made a lot of sense at that point to move back. I'd already been doing, you know, some education in while I was in London, actually around spatial design-type work and working in that space as well. But when I came back, I literally came back with nothing I had, you know, I had to start again, again. And so I picked myself up, went back and did some more education, I'd already finished a lot of work already, it was just more dotting the T's in some ways to a certain degree. When I finished that degree, I was I guess, I hate this term, but mature aged and it already had heaps of experience and I didn't want to go back and do you know, go into a junior role because I already had been in that role. But at the same time, I was starting again. And then somebody suggested I do a Master's. And so I thought, 'oh, cool, I can do that' which seems to be my answer to everything: 'I can do that!' So I do it!

The master’s turned into a PhD because it was pretty clear that a lot of big questions around Indigenous relationships to space on this continent hadn't been asked or answered or certainly not in an academic sense been addressed.

So as I was going through that process of doing the PhD, I was talking to a lot of Elders and knowledge holders and it was actually a real honor to have that opportunity to spend that time with them and just listening and being part of conversations and asking questions around what is the relationship between an Aboriginal understanding of Country?-- which I always write with a capital C, because it's more than just the countryside, it's more than just place, it's more than the tangible parts that you see, like the plants, animals and rocks and whatnot. It's also intangible parts. So it's air and water and fire, but what are you can see, but also knowledge about how to care for all of those things. And the relationships between all those things, and the connectivity between all those things, and how they become kin. And much, much more. So it's much more than even that. I think you can't describe Country actually, I don't think there's a way to define it.

So it was pretty clear that there was-- for me, Country was this holding of everything and places are being designed within Country. Whereas people were thinking quite differently at the time. So the questions I was asking, were, you know, changing the way that I was able to relate to built environments, because I would ask questions around well, is there Country in the city? That seems now like a really dumb question. But Elders at the time had never had anyone else ask this. And they're like, 'yeah, of course there is! Just ask your ancestors and call out to them for help. They'll help you find Country where you are.' So that part came along; there was my interest in in built environments from my education and experience. But then I had this very personal experience with my Grandmother, where we were walking down the street one day, she's still alive, very wonderful Grandmother, and I've got, I've had great relationships with both of my grandmother's and very blessed, I think, to have that. But she, I remember, she was being knocked by people as she walked down the street. And I was like 'what's going on?' and she said, 'oh, yeah, people just don't see me as when I walked down the street, like I'm invisible.' And I said, 'well why is that?' because she's gorgeous to me. She's wonderful, she's bubbly, she's active, you know. I couldn't understand why people wouldn't see her. It became clear that there was a certainly an older female aspect to that, no doubt. But there was also a racism aspect to it, that spaces weren't designed for her. Therefore, they're not designed for Aboriginal people and with Aboriginal perspectives. So those three kinds of questions came into my PhD and I wanted to know, how do I design spaces that are inclusive of Aboriginal ways of knowing and being in them?

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you so much for introducing us to that. When you're thinking about spaces with a Country-centric and Indigenous-centric perspective, what sort of questions are you asking about that space?

Danièle Hromek 

We always start I mean, our whole thing is start with Country, which I know, that's a very big question. But it's not the way that most people start projects. They start with a lot of thinking. So our starting point is understanding the story, the deep history, the contemporary understandings, the uses, every part of a place that we can possibly know, we'll explore that. And we then try and consolidate that into a way of being in that place, and a whole lot of values and principles and ways of exploring that place as design professionals or as people who are advising design professionals, we do both. I think that it's, you know, there's some part of that that design professionals do, but I don't think they do it as holistically as we're trying to do. Now, if you can't define Country, how do you do that? And I agree, there's a whole other complex situation around how do you do it when you can't define what you're trying to start with? But at the same time, I feel like having an Indigenous worldview starting that conversation, opens the doors to having a better broader, more inclusive, more diverse response, because that's how generally we tend to respond to things. We don't tend to compartmentalise. We think across ideas and we'll connect things that other people won't connected necessarily, but for us, they're deeply connected. That's because of the way that we think and see the world. So starting with an Indigenous voice actually changes how, hopefully, we respond throughout the project. Now, unfortunately, we're not always brought in at the start, but we certainly will do it wherever we can. Because it changes how responses can be made in a design and built environment perspective in my opinion and my experience.

Greg Clark 

What you're saying is so fascinating. I feel that you're saying something about consciousness of Country is a kind of key objective that you're trying to pursue to, to help more people to be more conscious of Country. So that Country can be acknowledged and recognised in the city and then if it can be acknowledged, then you can use it as a life force for the city seems to be is what you're saying? Firstly, is that right? Secondly, when you answer the question in a more sort of direct way, when you look at a city like Sydney, where do you see that Country is whether it's conscious or not?

Danièle Hromek 

So it is about being conscious of Country and I think it's more than acknowledging, though, I think it's using it as the force to drive the project and to drive how you behave. And that then changes how the decisions you make, be that around sustainability or around other ways of being. I think that changes how you how you basically go about your project.

Greg Clark 

Where is Country in Sydney, as you see it?

Danièle Hromek 

I see it everywhere. This is, this is the complexity of Country of course, because as a built environment, professional, everything that I touch is Country, everything I choose to specify is Country, everything that I maneuver or manipulate that's Country. It's the material aspects of Country often enough that we're working on, in built professionals, you know, it's the literally, you know, the bricks and the wood and the-- you know, that's material Country. But I also think that everything that is, you know, walked on and touched and experience and smelt within those environments is Country too. And, of course, that includes people, it includes non-people. The problem for me is that there's also the stories that come with that, that currently, in Sydney, while I consider all of this to be part of Country, currently, the narratives and the stories and the histories, and the ways of moving and ways of being and ways of exploring, that's a very European experience. And I don't think that we're experiencing things in an in that belong to this way of being here. At the moment, I think we're exploring things in a way that are extremely European, the hard ground that we walk on, the pavements, even down to that is very, not local, not from here. So the ground here in Australia used to be very soft, because we had soft-footed people with soft-footed animals. The water used to be able to filter in at certain points to you know, because we needed it to because the rainfall was so low, you know, all of those kinds of things. The built plan was built for that. So we've put down these very hard environments that block a lot of this connection so the connection to the feet to the ground, the way that we move around in right angles and straight lines that is in our ways that's guarny, that's crazy, guarny means crazy. It's crazy. Because if you really think about it, say you go for a walk – a bush walk as we call them here, like a walk around the Countryside for instance ­– you never walk in a straight line, you're always adjusting yourself to move either subtly, along a footpath that's just slightly uneven, or quite may in a major way to avoid an obstacle like a rock or a cliff or a tree or something. And so our bodies aren't built to walk in straight lines, no body is built to walk in straight lines, but Aboriginal bodies have been more recently interrupted. And so we don't have that expression of how we should be moving any longer in the cities like Sydney. Movement's just one idea, just as an example. But if you think of it holistically, just using that very small idea of movement, of all the different things that we could talk about, about how to respond to Country, then it becomes incredibly rich, and massive! Yeah, so there's a lot. It's quite complex, I guess. But I think it's really beautiful and could be really interesting for people to engage with.

Greg Clark 

I'd like to encourage you just to say even more about what you were just talking about because you're educating us as well, and for that we're very grateful. But you've said two very important things there one about hard surfaces and another one about straight lines, and how hard surfaces are not natural to Country, and how straight lines are not natural to Country. What else would you add to that? Just take some more minutes because it's fascinating.

Danièle Hromek 

I mean, sharp edges, of course, similar idea. Certain materials or the way that they're moved from one location to another. And we do this not only nationally, but we do it internationally, where we bring materials from a really long way away and some of our Sydney materials are taken a long way away as well, have been historically taken like our sandstone was taken all over the world because it's beautiful. Our beautiful gum trees were taken a long way away. We don't know where half of those things are now. They do know where a lot of the sandstone ended up, though, was reported. That belongs here. Just like a lot of the materials that are here belong somewhere else. And it creates for me-- here's an icon for you: the Sydney Harbour Bridge, right? We all know that. So the pylons are built from my Country, which is on the south coast, they are loaded up onto a boat, cut out of the Country, beautiful Moruya granite, basically. It was chosen because it's got a beautiful sparkle. So they cut it out of Country, put it on a boat and transported it up to here to Sydney to be used all over the city, actually, because of it's beauty. It's black and white and sparkling. And so just the pylons of the bridge don't belong here. And they actually in creating the bridge dispossessed other parts of Sydney, like the sandstone and actually the North pylon we're told by Elders that there was and who knows if there still is on the sandstone there a carving in a rock, a petroglyph, that tells an amazing story of, of that part of Country. And so even though I mean this is maybe it's in memory, maybe it's still sitting there under the pylon. Who knows? I couldn't tell you. But even in memory, that dispossession of Country from the south coast up to here has created a displaced place to me. And that's just one material. And one, you know, one swap of materials from sandstone to granite. I guess whatever we do, when you work in the built environment, we're destroying something and we have to come to terms with that and work better ways of doing it. But just even to think of that swap of sandstone to granite, has created a place that is incredibly iconic and beautiful. But also there's a hole in the ground where it came from on my Country.

Caitlin Morrissey 

It makes so much sense. And through this conversation, I think we've been transcending various different scales, as we talked about the relationship between Country and urbanisation. And in your work, how do you sort of approach scale? Recognising that it's difficult-- it's impossible to pin down the scale at which Country exists. And, like you said, it's so multi-dimensional, but in the work that you do, how do you sort of approach this question of scale?

Danièle Hromek 

I mean, as a designer, I recognise that we like to draw a boundary around our site, and that's our site. And that's very good. convenient that we can do that, because then we don't have to necessarily relate it to what's outside of the site. I think most designers give an attempt. But what we try to do is we-- our Elders have said that the site is as far as the eye can see. And I don't know if they're-- I don't think they're only talking about the eye in your, you know, the literal visual eye that can see things. But I think there's a lot of ways of seeing between, even if it was just seeing into the sky, that's a long way. Even if it's just seeing, even if you're on the top of a hill, and you can see, you know, a few, quite a few kilometers out, that's quite a long way. And certainly in Sydney, in many parts of Country, you can see the Blue Mountains, which is a couple of hours away, or maybe not that far, but an hour and a half away driving from the city. So even if it is the visual eye, often our sight in the way we we've been taught by our Elders is much bigger than what we do on a little line on the boundary of a map.

But it's also the eyes that see how you like it in terms of experiencing the waters that moves through a site, do we all know where water where our water comes from? I know I've learned that my water here in where I live, has been desalinated. And I now have this quandary of like, 'well, is it salt water? Or is it freshwater?' And I still haven't come to an understanding. But like, it's a big question for me that I come up against every few months. And I'm like, 'I don't know how to answer that.' Because do I now have to honour saltwater here? Because actually this is saltwater Country, in a way? Or do I have to honour on a freshwater? Because I'm now drinking water that has been forced to be fresh? Does it have a relationship to saltwater animals and fish, or freshwater? I don't you know, you can see why I'm a tired person. But it is, you know, where does our water come from through the site? Where does it connect back onto? Are we leaving a good freshwater source as it moves through? Is it cleaner than when it leaves our site? Have we ever made it less clean? Where does the air pass to? Are they can air currents or winds or you know, motion? What stories come here? And certainly in Aboriginal ways, our stories do have pathways that we they move along that we follow still often. And that's often what people call song lines or storylines and they're often pathways that are literally people move along them. And now they're roads because the pathways got turned into roads.

And so when you start to think like this, the site isn't the little square, but it's all of the stuff that comes in and out of the site, and how it's connected to everything. But at the same time, so it's macro, like it's massive sometimes. And it's really important to contextualise how everything connects. But at the same time, we're told to remember the tiny things and the small voices who often don't get heard. And to celebrate those and to integrate those and to make pathways for those to continue to be on this Country, whatever those voices might be, be it that it's a line of ants that have always moved in that path or a waterway that needs to be reconnected back again that’s been dispossessed in Country so far.

Greg Clark 

Sounds like a funny question and again, please forgive me for that. But it would be wonderful if you would speak to two things. One is, which projects initiatives or spaces in Sydney, do you think have been, as it were, renewed in a way that does respect Country and is conscious of Country? Are there any places that you think 'ah! Finally something appropriate is being done'? And then secondly, of course, when you get involved in a project like that, how do you help make that happen? But there's definitely two questions here. Because there may be things that you like or respect that you think are being done in a better way that you haven't been personally involved with. So on the first question, where in Sydney, do you begin to see the restoration of Country?

Danièle Hromek 

I think it's still a work in progress. So-- and that, you know, there's a bigger question around that: what is what is restored and what isn't? You know, what becomes just destruction as well, if you're trying to restore? I think that, you know, I finished my PhD in 2018 or 2019-- I've lost track of my days. I don't know. Is it old age? I don't know. But I've lost track of where I'm at which year was my PhD certificate somewhere, I should find it and be able to tell you. It's not that long ago. When I finished my PhD, I couldn't get a job, it was pretty hard yakka to find work, nobody wanted-- I wanted to do a postdoc, and nobody would give me the chance. And yet, you know, I've received a PhD with no changes, basically, it's, you know, one of the top, top PhDs and yet I couldn't get any other opportunities, because people didn't know, people couldn't see how this was relevant to them. So not that long ago, like four or five, five years ago, five, six years ago, Elders still had time to talk to me. Like now they're rushed off their feet. I can't, you know, it's hard to get them on the phone because things have changed so dramatically in a short time.

The work that's happened through, first, you know, in New South Wales, at least, the Connecting with Country Framework, which I was active on in the early stages, and I've given advice to throughout, that has changed things very quickly, where there's certain projects that we do have to be involved with. But in the built environment projects, that's not very long, you know, we know that our projects take longer than that. And so I think that there's a-- if you ask me this in five to 10 years, I think I'll come back with the list of places that we should go and visit that have been informed by Country and First Nations voices. Currently, I think it's a work in progress. The way that we bring those in and, of course, like every project, you have varying levels of success, because, you know, a lot of our work relies on the goodwill of those who we're working with, and our clients to actually want to do what's being recommended, because it is different. And that's hard to still relate to, because Traditional Owners and Traditional Custodians have rights, but they're not enacted and enabled very well yet. Often, they don't, they don't know their own rights as well. And that's not a critique of them, they had them forcibly removed, you know, several generations ago, and a lot of families are still regaining their connection and who they are and how they can relate to this world as it is. So that's it, it's just, you can't blame anyone for being in the circumstance that they're in when it comes to colonisation.

But what we do try to do is, as I've said, we start with Country and this very different way of seeing and try and introduce it to everybody and bring them along with us, in a way that is non-confronting to every single, you know, different types of people. Because a lot of people haven't experienced somebody talking like me before and asking these sorts of questions before and so I need, we need to do it gently. And even for those for people who have been working in this industry for a very long time. And our communities haven't been, I mean, they're now we're very actually becoming quite sophisticated in how they respond to these projects, because they're getting experience over the last few years. But it wasn't that long ago that they weren't, they were completely ignored. And it's very small things that have made a big difference to them, you know, in relation to policy and frameworks, for instance. So we try-- we are often walking between two worlds, trying to bring everyone along, often having to write several strategies, one, that's the voice  to the community that says, 'did we get it right?' and then another one that's to the client, so that they can understand because they often don't speak the same language or not often don't have the same understandings because they've come from a different worldview and a different perspective. And so we're often having to do double work because we're walking in both, trying to walk in both camps. And now our work is often enough, interpretive.

However, we are also qualified designers. And when we get a chance, we'll jump in and do design ourselves. It's, we're still where we find that we're often in that former role of advice, and that's fine, but we do love to be designers ourselves. And that's when we get to get our fingernails in and, you know, really push the boundaries of what we've been trying to do and try and do it in a different way and ask us how we can represent culture and story and narrative in a design, while still making it buildable, while still making constructible, while still making it affordable. So yeah, we've got and then we also talking about the small and the large things. We also do interpretive work, which is, often we want that to be the last thing that we do in a way not the first thing, though, some projects, try and put that as the first thing. And we're like, 'no, no, no, there's all this other work we have to do as well.' But the interpretive work is really important for that, for that sort of story. storytelling and mind changing, I think, where people can go, 'I can see my story there, and I'm welcome here' and other people can go 'this feels a bit different' because there's all these-- firstly, it feels different spatially. But there's all these markings and stories and stuff here, that's native endemic species that make it look different than the other place over there. So it's about a holistic change, you know, not just about how you add markings or interpretations, but also how spatially it feels different.

Caitlin Morrissey 

in your work, to pick up on another sort of big theme, but it feels like maybe that there's different ways of approaching time and timescales the work that you do. I know that I've done some work on infrastructure projects, and project time is one thing, but the imagining of that future and can exist on different times. Do you navigate that much in the work that you do, architecturally?

Danièle Hromek 

All the time. So we have a bigger picture plan in our heads of how it could work and we're working towards that ourselves around enabling Traditional Owners to for want of a better term, to plan their Country. Like, to be planners themselves. And we're working on how to do that, you know, we need funding from government realistically and big end developers to jump on board that but it's that's a whole other scale of work. And that's a long term project because but it we desperately need it right now, desperately need it right now. But we are constantly navigating timescales, we've worked out how to give him inputs at the right stages now, so that we at least can make differences at different stages. And we've worked out how to ask to be brought in earlier. I inform a lot of you know, both government and industry and industry bodies, about bringing First voices in earlier. So when it comes to like business case, or even earlier, when you're first coming up with the idea, get somebody in and talk to them and understand what could what are the opportunities here. So people are starting to get that it's that earlier is better. Not all people but generally. And that though, we do still get the last minute requests of quick we need something in three weeks. And often that's unfair on us and unfair on all the people that you know, we work with already, who give us the right timescale. But so please don't do that to us anymore. But yeah, time is time is hard. I think that though, every discipline is challenged by that, that they're often they're the timescales put on to these projects are so in some ways, irrational, in some ways, they're not rational because of what's actually involved. We still want to try and make a difference. Despite the irrationality to us.

Caitlin Morrissey

And sometimes a degree of arbitrariness to time to in terms of projects.

Danièle Hromek 

Around a budget, some magic money magically disappearing for some reason.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And in, in your work in Sydney, when you're sort of doing working on various different projects sounds like you work on in different ways on multiple different projects. I remember earlier in the conversation, you're saying that you have a unique relationship with Country in Sydney, because you're from your Yuin Country. And so how do you sort of navigate that in your work, bringing in Elders and local experts into the work that you do in Sydney?

Danièle Hromek 

Yeah, yeah, I'm very fortunate to have strong relationships with people who were like my Elders from Sydney. And we they also are kind enough to believe that to support us in our work as well and to believe in us and I'm very grateful for that. Because it's tough going to run a business small business anyway, let alone when you're trying to run a small business that's got Indigenous values and ethics, I won't even go into that, but it's complex to do that, that's another conversation perhaps. But because I have a strong relationships, and I work really hard to maintain them, and to be respectful, be respectful wherever I work, to listen carefully, to walk gently, to take criticism, to take praise to like, or, you know, it's actually a really critical part of my work and to have good relationships as much as I can. And to maintain those. I guess I'm fortunate to have that, but I also have worked hard at the relationships that I've got, but often enough, they're very happy to give input and provide advice. They often they are the ones with the time pressures as much as we are as a small business, and we will bring them in as much, you know, wherever, whatever points we can, and we'll get everything ready for their voices. And then we'll put them in and send the report out the same day so that, you know, we've been waiting all that time and like, we'll get everything else ready so that it's ready to go. So we work with them, we work with their timescales.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And you mentioned that there are different types of work, so your advisory work your designing. Are there some other sort of strands of work that you do? And at different scales?

Danièle Hromek 

There are, absolutely. I'm a researcher, so we do research. Often enough, of course, it is about built environments, but sometimes it's not, it's about things that are important to Aboriginal people, we've done a bit of research around Aboriginal languages, which is extraordinarily interesting. And we were able to bring a whole lot of different voices around how they're recovering language and the importance of language to them. So we certainly do other types of research based work. And we also do, as I've said, interpretive work, and storytelling and objects, usually for the built environment objects, that object type work, where it's usually for something we've designed will go well, it needs a special seat, or it needs a special sign, whatever. So we certainly do that. Our main work is in design and advisory. But we often enough working with a whole group of practices, you know, some big some small on on a collective project on very different scales. You know, some very small. We're we also are very interested in community projects that are important to the Aboriginal community. And you know, there aren't many, of course they don't, they're not the ones with the wealth that can afford their own community spaces. So it's got to come from somewhere else. But we're very interested in that.

Greg Clark 

Danièle, thank you so much. I've been really enjoying this and it's great to just have this time with you. As you know, that this podcast and the book that Caitlin and I are creating and the many things we're doing with this theme. It's called the, The DNA of Cities. And the idea of it is that we're trying to use the sort of the metaphor of the genetic code to explore something about what makes places and indeed cities, healthy or not healthy. And it has these ideas of ecology and authenticity, and embedded identity, and these ideas of vernacular, and also these ideas of the kind of social, belonging and social customs that can emerge in a place where there's an interaction between the physical and the social, where, you know, we create our cities, and then our cities create us idea. And we're not suggesting for a minute that that this is the same as the idea about Country or, I mean, obviously Country is more than an idea, it's a whole way of being and living and thinking and imagining. But does our idea of the DNA of cities make sense to you, when you think of it from a perspective of Country? And if so, what's interesting in it?

Danièle Hromek 

Of course, it's interesting. It's interesting in a few ways. Some of my Elders say that we come from here, like, you know, we, our DNA is from here. And when you think about that, like, I know that there's a few different there's scientific theories that talk about that. And certainly other Elders talk about how some of our ancestors came from across the continent to here. I think there's probably both, I think there's actually in our DNA, it tells us there's both: both that we are descended from Africa, and we're come from here, there's some parts of our DNA that literally come from here. So when you literally come from a place like your DNA belongs there, it changes how you understand who you are, in relation to that place, and how you then have a responsibility to it and a responsibility to your to care for it, and obligation in behavior, etc. And I guess that's the, you know, in terms of how I feel about places that I work, I feel a strong responsibility for that place. Whether or not because my personal DNA comes from there, I've certainly been given the responsibility to have that attitude towards it. So talking about DNA is interesting. And there's a whole lot more than that, I think, you know, when Elders say, you know, we saw the first kangaroo jump, we saw the first eucalyptus bloom. That's incredibly beautiful idea. And then, and then 230, something years ago, colonists came and they brought an imprint of somewhere else and put it here, on top of this place, where we saw the first kangaroo jump, and we saw the eucalyptus bloom. And there's a sort of, there's a sadness in that in some ways that they didn't see our ways of designing here, because we certainly had them. And they didn't see our ways of doing architecture and design and buildings here, because we certainly had them, that we know that we did, and we talked about it, you know, our communities still know. And they didn't see that each of these places had a unique vernacular of architecture already.

So they brought this-- they imprinted Europe into this place and you can still see essences of that original place in how the land lies and how the forms of the ground around and then there's a few original trees still spotted around. So that you can still see the essence of that place. You can see it in the harbor very clearly, you know, how you would have chosen certain points to move and cross at the current, the right current and when the, you know, the waters are going in or out, you choose where to go and like and you would have lived your life certainly around that. The waterways in Sydney was such it's such an important part and still is in different ways. So you can still get an understanding of that original DNA if you go looking for it. My question is, are people looking at that original DNA of that original place? Are they looking at the imprint? Still, I think they're looking at the imprint and haven't really thought about what is the real vernacular of Sydney? What's the real architectural vernacular here? Because I think when we start to answer that question we turn to Country, we turn to a different way of seeing, a different way of reading the landscape, a different way of being and walking on the landscape. I think that's when we start to see a unique place. Now, it's unique, of course, because it's Sydney and you come here and you go, 'wow, isn't the harbour gorgeous' and all of that. But guess what? Guess what's gorgeous here? The places that make that original vernacular, you see the mountains in the distance, you see the beaches. It's the original vernacular, the original DNA that's got the beauty. And what if we were just switching how we check, not making it about a faraway place, but this place? And not making and really asking that question. I've got-- you know, I hope in a few years, I'll go 'here it is! here's the one that we did' and, you know, maybe it won't be that far away. We've got a few buildings that we've been working on, and working with colleagues that, you know, that are coming out, and spatial outcomes that are starting to have a bit more responsiveness around this place. But I think there's a bigger question around that, you know, what are we actually responding to? What's the heritage here that is going to keep informing us? And how do we then do that? You know, 'turn the Titanic' is that saying.

Greg Clark 

I think Danièle, that's a perfect place to end this part of our conversation with you.