Dr Hou Li

Caitlin Morrissey

What is the DNA of Shanghai?

Hou Li

So I'm thinking of three keywords or three main features of Shanghai. I think, first of all, Shanghai is a port city. Then the second is the crossroad of East and West or, if I can say, for Chinese and foreign cultures. There's lots of-- in terms of which term to use, we can talk forever: like quasi-colonial, quasi-cosmopolitan, something like that. That's the second one, the crossroad of international cultures, let's say. Then the third, it will be a city of-- a city for migrants seeking for opportunities, fortunes and sheltering. After I said that, I-- which reminds me-- almost fits all global cities we are talking about. So I need to be more specific.

I propose, I think, first of all, it's the location. The second is the history, its history. And the last would be Shanghai urbanism. Location, in terms of-- speaking of the location, I think it first-- it has to be linked to the rise of the international trade because clearly, Shanghai was not in the best location in ancient times; it was Suzhou, for example, right in the centre of the Great Canal. But it's only entering-- that they were entering the age of international trade. Now, I realise I'm talking to English people. I have to say forced entering the era, sorry, of international trade.

Then Shanghai's location as the best port, it does not have the best, you know, physical condition as a port city because, for example, yeah, Huangpu River and the Yangtze River, the-- how to say, the depth of water is not very ideal, but the location is perfect because Shanghai is right in the centre of Chinese coastlines. And equally important, Shanghai is at the river mouth of the Yangtze River. The largest river in China also is, we can say, the spawn of Chinese civilization. So Shanghai has great hinterland, the best connection with its hinterland and with the world across the ocean. I think that's the first or the most important feature of Shanghai as Shanghai.

Then its history: it's also, again, quite a challenge to summarise its history to why Shanghai's history make it Shanghai. But I think, overall, it's like its history as enlightenment - let's put that way - its history as the enlightenment to modernisation, enlightenment to China, this enlightenment is not only-- not limited to economic industrial-- like industrialisation: also culture, also art, modern culture, modern art and modern industries. So modernisation as a key to the modernisation of China, as a showcase to the-- the showcase of modernisation in China. That can, to some extent, summarise the history of Shanghai in the past.

And certainly, the Shanghai urbanism is also quite unique. Shanghai is like the ultimate symbol of urbanity in China, but you can always argue it's not 100% Chinese, but it's 100% urban. If you are referring Shanghai to any Chinese people in terms of the built environment, it's the historical culture like the Bund, B-U-N-D. I can never know how to pronounce it properly; I heard it's from India. The Bund, the Nanjing Road, as the first pedestrianised commercial street and also, its modern invention like Lujiazui, the Pudong New Area, the new central business districts as the symbol-- not only the symbol of China reconnected to the world but also, the symbol of the urban age in China, the returning of urban age or the beginning of the urban age in China.

And urbanism, when I talk about, it's also a distinctive way of life, Shanghai. When people talk about the-- you know, the Chinese people talk about the Shanghainese sometimes with cynical tongues. First of all is the urbanism in terms of urban planning and urban construction. And secondly, I think, urbanism in terms of Shanghainese distinctive way of life. I think, above all, it's the people who shape, who are attracted by the city or chosen by the city and who eventually settled down in the city, formed this Shanghai urban culture. I think the best terming if I-- allow me to use a Marxist term, is the-- I cannot pronounce. Forgive me, I cannot pronounce very well. The petite bourgeoisie, a society of petite bourgeoisie, this preference over-- for a peaceful, exquisite life, not too ambitious, but settle for a family friendly  but quality-driven life or can be replaced-- I don't know if I can find the proper Western term for that. It's similar to middle-class culture, but it's also a little bit different. I'm afraid my English is not good enough to describe that Shanghainese culture. In the beginning, I said, I see myself as a new Shanghainese. I think that's one way of life. I grew up in the north, so I can never feel, myself, as that Shanghainese, as the local residents.

The other features of Shanghai urbanism, someone may say, is related to its quasi-colonial past, but to Shanghai, people put it positively. They embraced-- they like to embrace international culture. They are open for new fashions, new trends. As many people see, Shanghai is the most foreign place in China which makes it attractive. Not in a negative way, but in a attractive, fashionable way.

Greg Clark

Li, I am enthralled by what you're saying. It's very, very clear and helpful, and let me tell you what I heard and ask you if it's correct. Because of the location of Shanghai as a city that is connected to the Pacific Ocean and also connected to the Yangtze River, it has developed this opportunity both to be a trading port, but it has also become a place that was interesting to international forces: some of them military forces, some of them international populations that were curious, some of them traders. And this has given Shanghai a kind of engine of development and growth which is a little bit separate to the main engine of development and growth of China. This is driven by forces from outside and by geographical circumstances so that, as you say, Shanghai's urbanism in the last 150 years has been driven by forces of trade, forces of colonialism, sense of scale and size, becoming a very big city, and producing a culture which is uniquely both Chinese in the sense that it draws upon all of its origins in eastern China, but it's also infused with international influences and openness and sometimes called-- cosmopolitanism is part of the identity.

And these days, I suppose, because Shanghai became a very big city in a very big region of Yangtze River Delta and because of the Belt and Road Initiative, Shanghai's distinctive feature has now become much more important to China because it allows Shanghai to be the eastern city that can connect the road and the belt and can be the anchor for the Yangtze River Delta region, the 68 cities. And therefore, if you like, Shanghai's DNA is now being used positively to think about the whole of Eastern China. Did I understand correctly more or less what you said, or did I add some things that you don't agree with?

Hou Li

I think you summarised it elegantly, yes. But the very last point about the Belt and Road Initiative, I am not sure if Shanghai would benefit also or gaining a very strategic role in this Belt and Road Initiative. I talk about the culture of petite bourgeois. That's also something being criticised because people are easy-- Shanghainese relatively easy-- easier to feel content about their position. So there is argument-- indeed, for example, city such as Shenzhen, on the rise or already rising to a certain position to lead the country in this new international strategies. For example, Shanghai is never that-- in such a leading position in innovations and creativity.

Greg Clark

So are you saying that although Shanghai may not have a strategic political position in Belt and Road, it does have a strategic position in innovation, creativity, internationalisation, perhaps because of its DNA, its institutions, its talent base? Is that right?

Hou Li

Yeah, I would say so. On the other hand, I think not very cutting edge; it's not the best thing. It give Shanghai its resiliency, and it's very stable. It's a mature city, so it's not a pioneer city anymore, so.

Greg Clark

How is Shanghai viewed by other big cities in China? What does Beijing or Guangzhou or Chengdu or Wuhan or Chongqing-- what do they think of Shanghai? When they look at Shanghai, what do they see? And I'm also interested to know what the other cities in the Yangtze River Delta region think about Shanghai. What does Suzhou and Nanjing and others think? How is Shanghai viewed by other cities?

Hou Li

Yeah, that's a great question first of all. Indeed, during lunch, I asked my colleagues in Shenzhen what are their wills towards Shanghai. Different cities for sure; they have different wealth. I think for the young-- let me begin with the easier one. Yangtze River Delta region cities, its little brothers and sisters, I think they look upon Shanghai as the dragon head, the big brother, and sometime, the big brother don't care for themself too much. They not caring enough a competitive-- in a competitive position. But most of all, it's the central engine of growth, and it's like the headquarters, the brand and the production machine for the region.

And for city such as Beijing-- well, Beijing, it's more about the people's will. When Beijing people talk about the Shanghai, they more envy for Shanghai's nicely urban environment, for example, more human-friendly streets, not that super large blocks, and the more gentle or delicately managed - how do you say it? - urban districts in the amenities. For example, I talk about foreigners living in Beijing, they never-- they feel as if they only go to Beijing for great opportunities and a chance of being famous, but the foreigners or the international migrant in Shanghai, they are more of looking like-- find a place to live, to settle down.

And Shenzhen-- like, Shenzhen is now almost like the third national central city in China. They respect very much the history of Shanghai. They do like, especially, the cultural activities of Shanghai. Like my friend in Shenzhen, last week, they would fly to Shanghai to visit galleries and exhibitions, you know, performance, dramas, which only happen in Shanghai. Even I see Shenzhen is a very active city, full of activities, so I'm quite surprised.

Greg Clark

And this is because Shanghai has cultural institutions that have grown up because of the history of the last 150 years. Shanghai has some different cultural offerings than Beijing, which is more nationally oriented, and then Shenzhen which is too young to have these institutions. Is that right?

Hou Li

Yes. Yes. I think the other-- like, we've got sort of a-- it's very hierarchical. The second-tier large cities such as Chengdu, Chongqing, Wuhan, I think they more like-- they may be condescending. I don't know. They look upon Shanghai as a model, as a model of development, model of construction.

Greg Clark

And what about Beijing? How does Beijing see Shanghai?

Hou Li

In terms of Beijing-- when you talk about Beijing, you mean the Beijing people or the Beijing government?

Greg Clark

Well, both.

Hou Li

I think for the Beijing government, as the central-- speaking of the central government, Shanghai is a very reliable production machine, like a fat wallet, producing a source of-- a very important source of revenues for the central government. In the-- Beijing would put, like, all sorts of experiments, like Shenzhen, but they will-- they would be-- treat very careful about Shanghai because Shanghai is too important to be experimental. It's a very important-- crucial assets.

On the other hand, I think - this is getting political - Shanghai is also very important. How to say it? The political forces in the national politics-- like, Shanghai contributed several national leaders and– I'm saying Shanghai contributed many leaders are influential to national policies. On other hand, in terms of the city government, I think Beijing do learn from Shanghai. One thing is, you know, the Xiong'an New District, the new capital, right now, is under construction. Many of the planners are from Shanghai because the leader of this new construction shows that Shanghai has one of the best experience in building new towns and developing Pudong new districts. So Shanghai planners, many of them are moved to Xiong'an to work on the site. Almost half of the-- half of Shanghai planners had this experience in the past two years. Of course, nationally, many of the best planners work in Xiong'an, but Shanghai is a very major part of it to show-- Beijing do look at Shanghai as well for the best examples of urban construction and urban planning. And as I mentioned earlier, in terms of urbanity, in the more delicate way of urban management, Beijing do agree that Shanghai-- that they can learn from Shanghai. But on the other hand, they also kind of-- sometime, they would laugh about Shanghai, this petite bourgeois, this-- too calculating, not ambitious, not being the strategic thinker and a leader of the country because they are.

Greg Clark

I'm going to ask one more question, if I may, so just to talk a little bit more about water. The Pacific Ocean and the Yangtze River, you explained, Li, very well how these connect to the economic model, to trade, to port and how it connects to bringing people from other countries into Shanghai, so this kind of cosmopolitanism. But does this connection to water have any other meanings in Shanghai? Does it impact on the food or the cuisine or the recreation activities of people, or is the city really a city that ignores the water? Is it with the water or somehow against the water?

Hou Li

Yeah, that's a fascinating question, yes, and very-- I think Shanghai or China do have a very different culture regarding water. Yes, Shanghai, in its name, literally meaning 'going to the sea', but the relationship between the city and the sea are, I think, complex, let’s say, complicated. The water, especially the ocean or the sea, is more of practical use as a tool to connect the world. But Shanghai, the city does not have the culture of using water as recreational use. You can never see-- Shanghai doesn't have a nice beach at all. There is a fake beach but very-- only children, desperate children would use it. Shanghai is more of a-- I think Shanghai is close to the freshwater in terms of the Yangtze River, the Huangpu River and the Suzhou Creek. But, you know, because all those rivers were heavily polluted and, you know, the Chinese civilization fall because of this fighting with flood and with water, so I think the civilisation is always cautious. So, for example, you can see how tall the wall is protecting the city from the Huangpu River. It would never happen, but the standard is like a per-thousand-year-flood control so a very high standard. It's more afraid of this water, but they do need water for transportation. It's more like a transport. Shanghai also does not have this-- a little bit, but not many traditional fishermen. It was, but not anymore, so it's mainly a trade city. Let me recap. So, indeed, I think it's more of a utilitarian way of using the water for living, for economy, but not-- and, of course, for drinking water but not for recreation, for entertainment and for everyday life.

Caitlin Morrissey

The next question I want to ask you is about leaders in Shanghai that you think may have had a profound impact on the way that the city has evolved. 

Hou Li

First, of the leaders, I can only say the official-- I can only think of, you know-- because China-- very strong state-dominance, so all I can think of are the official leaders. The most well-known leaders of Shanghai-- I will say it's Zhu Rongji and Jiang Zemin who later became the prime minister and the chairman or the president of China. Post the reform era, I think these two are the most important figures in shaping Shanghai's development because that's quite a crucial transitional time when the master plan-- the new master plan of Shanghai was made that the spatial structure, the crucial infrastructure - for example, improve the port facilities, the high-speed rail, the train - all those major decisions were made-- defines Shanghai today. And I also-- I think I implied that a little bit earlier, that because of the two who later became national leaders, I think, assure Shanghai their strategy for Shanghai being implemented faithfully in the following decades.

Of course, if we talk about the long history of Shanghai, we can talk continuously of major historic episode. There are-- there were many of the mayors or the business leaders, like, in the very beginning, the Jewish, the British-Jewish, like Sassoon. There were mayors who serve as the mayor of Shanghai before 1949, and they continue to be as the mayor after 1949. It's such a kind of a leader who also try to help the planning of Shanghai, the building of Shanghai, this key thinking and the key plans being implemented all trying to help a better Shanghai.

Caitlin Morrissey

Let me ask you about the discoveries of Shanghai. What stands out to you, or is there an innovative mindset that is unique to Shanghai that is unlike anywhere else? What are your thoughts on that?

Hou Li

You know, that's the most difficult question to me. When I saw the question, I think of-- if you are talking about technological innovations and discoveries, almost none. Shanghai has never-- as I said, it's never a city of innovation, but it's more like the city would consolidate existing-- all the best technologies and inventions into practice to use them. Indeed, when I saw the question, the first came into my mind is, the Chinese Communist Party was born in Shanghai. This might be the most world-changing invention. I'm not sure that fits in the category, or is it?

Greg Clark

I think it does because it can be a discovery or an invention. And, Li, I had the same thought - what's the most important invention to come from Shanghai? - must be Chinese Communist Party. So this is a good answer, but you might have other ones as well.

Hou Li

Yeah. Can I say, like, urban planning? Because Shanghai is not-- well, Shanghai was the industrial centre, and Shanghai is still the economic centre, the centre for business and also centre-- the hub for many higher education institutions and the research and think tanks. But I do think urban planning of Shanghai, it-- the history of planning Shanghai is quite exceptional and leading. It has one of the earliest, most comprehensive master plan in China in 1940s, and it's quite influential, as I said. It serve as a model and also almost like a textbook of urban planning and urban construction across decades. And then, in the 1980s, and then, right now, Shanghai master plan 2035, one of the first passed by the central government and now, serving as the model for many Chinese cities, this very much back to the centre of our discipline. I must say I'm bias towards this plan, but still, I can't think of the other-- like, a comparable inventions.

Caitlin Morrissey

Are there any Shanghai inventions in the world of food?

Hou Li

Oh, oh. When it comes to food, yes, many because Shanghai food is based, again-- and, like its culture, it's a mix-- mixture of the Yangtze River Delta region and also some international cultures. So it's like a reinvention, Shanghai food - some from Russia and some from Jewish and some from Jiangsu - but then it became very Shanghai. Specifically, I think the most well-known is the - how do you say it? - the steamed bun?

I think that's the most well-known Shanghai food. And Shanghai also has-- I don't know. Again, I need your help. It is sort of-- I heard it's from Vienna. There's a special term for that, like a Shanghai pork steak. You add spicy soy sauce on that. So it's based on a German food that really invented by a Shanghainese. And also a soup, I think, from Russia but again, reinvented with-- it's like a beef stew with potato, carrots, cabbage, lots of tomato. 

Caitlin Morrissey

And so the final question I'll ask you is what you see the future holding for Shanghai and how everything that we've spoken about will play into that and how its DNA will shape its future.

Hou Li

Again, I think-- I also feel that, although I am planner, but I do feel many uncertainty because the world, right now, is also at a critical juncture, let me say. But Shanghai's plan is-- the official slogan is 'Striving for an Excellent Global City'. I do sincerely hope-- because it's-- I think that lie in its DNA, lie in its gene. The gene of Shanghai is a global city, an international city. And I do hope in the future it will continue to do that way to serve as the window for Shanghai opening to the world and the hub or an open hub for the global communications and of China's economy, a very steady, stable core for China's economy and civilization.

I think the good side of Shanghai urbanism is not-- it's not very radical. It's in the middle-ground. I think Shanghainese, at the-- the DNA of Shanghai, it always can find a middle ground for different interests, different cultures. I think that lies in its DNA. I hope it will serve it in the future, and it will also serve the country and serve the world in that way.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you, Li. 

Hou Li

Oh, there is a question I feel is really interesting. You ask, what are the common misconceptions that people hold about Shanghai? But again, my answer is very planner answer. The common misconception about Shanghai is about its density. People often think Shanghai is very dense because, again, it's in China; it's a very populous country, a populous region. Shanghai has the largest population in China and probably rank among the first-- one of the first in the world.

But after decades of continuous decentralisation effort, the planning-- let's say, planning efforts, indeed the city-- the density of the city has been lowered significantly. When we compare Shanghai with Tokyo, with New York, even with London, indeed, Shanghai-- I mean, the physical, the development density's not very high indeed. If speaking professionally, for example, the floor area will show the average FAR [Floor Area Ratio] of Lujiazui - it's the CBD area - indeed, is no more than 2.5, 2.6. It's much, much lower than the city of London or Manhattan.

Of course, it's based on very-- more like the modernist scheme, the tower in a park, but also-- it's also this intentionally lowering the density of the central city, making progress. The result-- for example, the residential development being capped, very specifically, under 2.5 for more than ten years. So can lower the population-- overall population density in Shanghai. Instead of-- as compared to the other city, indeed, they are building more skyscrapers in the central city area. Shanghai, indeed, been trying to control, adding green space, park space for the past 20 years or even 30 years.