Lael Bethlehem

Greg Clark 

Well, we were really honoured to discover that Lael Bethlehem is one of the listeners to The DNA of Cities podcast. We’re so delighted to have Lael join us. Now, Lael, let me just ask you, what have you enjoyed about listening to the podcast? How have you found any of it meaningful for you?

Lael Bethlehem 

I found the podcast so interesting and such fun to listen to because what it has enabled me to do is to think about cities that I am familiar with but also to learn about cities that I don't know. So I found it really interesting to listen to podcasts on cities that I already know reasonably well, and to find out so much new information and so many new perspectives about those cities, and then for the cities that I've never visited, to really just get a sense of what those cities must be like, and to really begin to explore those cities without even having been there. So, being able to do both of those things has for me been a wonderful experience.

Greg Clark 

That's wonderful. I'm really pleased that it's done that because I know that you know quite a few cities, but I know that your curiosity is legend. So let me ask you, what have you concluded about The DNA of Cities? What does this term mean to you now? How does it apply in any of the things you're interested in your work life or in your personal life?

Lael Bethlehem 

Well, I think it's a fantastic term, it's really so thought provoking and it stimulates so much conversation. So for example, when I listened to the DNA of London, London is a city that I have visited many times, and that I feel I know reasonably well, but to listen to people who have lived and worked in London, experts on London, commenting on what is quintessential about that city, what is the set of characteristics that really defines the city in the experience of a wide range of people? That's a great question to think about. I think what it has elicited is a range of historical and geographical perspectives that I found really fascinating. So for example, with regard to London, to think about the way in which the river has shaped the city, to think about the way in which migration has shaped the city, so not only to limit the DNA to historical or geographical features, but to link those in so powerfully and successfully with human and cultural forces, that affect the city has been just a really wonderfully thought provoking experience.

Greg Clark 

I'm really glad that has worked for you, because part of the whole idea, of course, is to connect what we might call the genetic code of the city, the endowed, the inherited and the acquired traits, with this idea of epigenetics: how people actually live, how they behave, how human nature is changed by the places that they live, and it sounds like that's come through a little bit. So, Lael, I want you if you will, to take one city that you know well and tell us about that city, and what you love about it, of course, but also what your reflections are on the DNA of that city itself.

Lael Bethlehem 

Well, let me take Johannesburg, the city that I know best and the city where I live. Johannesburg, you know, to ask oneself, what are the essential characteristics? What is the DNA of Johannesburg? For me, the DNA of Johannesburg has to do with making a plan. So you said of London, or perhaps one of your guests said of London, that the DNA of London is live and let live. I think that if there is a phrase that encapsulates Johannesburg, it is the phrase ‘to make a plan’. What that means, in our sort of, in our idiom, is that there is no obstacle that is too great to overcome and that some pragmatic way can be found to get around any obstacle. The history of Johannesburg is really that kind of history. Really, there is no reason other than the discovery of gold, that there would be a major city in Johannesburg. It's famously one of the very few large cities in the world that does not have either a major river or the sea. So different from what was said, in the podcasts, for example, about Shanghai, or about London or about Philadelphia, all of which I found a hugely interesting, but Johannesburg is there, because there was this incredible gold reef, but the gold reef was deep below the ground, and could not easily be accessed and that stimulated the birth of a city. Johannesburg is in the words of one commentator, a city that leapt to life. It is a city that-- I guess a bit like Tel Aviv. If I think about the episode on Tel Aviv, a bit like Tel Aviv, it is a recent city. It's a city that happened very, very quickly. It leapt to life. Really within 20 years of the discovery of gold, there's this major metropolis from being really just farmland to a major metropolis in 20 years.

There's a wonderful set of images in the Apartheid Museum, which shows Johannesburg just before the discovery of gold. Basically, it's one little farmhouse and then shows Johannesburg 20 years later and it is a major city with very impressive high rise buildings and all sorts of urban infrastructure. So it's a city that makes a plan. It's a city that made a plan to oppose apartheid and to in the end defeat apartheid. It is the city in which apartheid was defeated. It is the city in which people organise themselves to struggle against apartheid to take on apartheid. It's the city that gave birth to extraordinary leaders, like Mandela and Tambo and so many others. It's a city where really the conditions to fight apartheid arose from urban life, that the gathering of large numbers of black South Africans in Johannesburg and particularly in Soweto, part of Johannesburg, gave rise to the conditions for the defeat of apartheid. So a plan was made to get the gold, a plan was made to overthrow apartheid. So, lots of interesting engineering solutions have been found in Johannesburg.

Then in a more contemporary sense, Johannesburg is a place which has become a magnet for migrants from all over Africa, it has become an enormously important cultural melting pot in southern Africa. It’s a place in which all sorts of new innovations have come about. It's a place in which some very interesting companies have been born in the last 20 or 30 years in the post-apartheid era, including Nando's, which is a product of Johannesburg and including Investec bank, discovery, medical and insurance. These are large now-global corporates born and bred in Johannesburg. So Johannesburg is a place where we make a plan. It's also a place that is going through a great period of difficulty at the moment but because of our history, I do really believe that in relation to the problems that we now face, we will draw on that spirit of Johannesburg and make a plan.

Greg Clark 

Wow, Lael, this is a brilliant description of the city. It seems to me that there's something that unifies these things that you've just described, which is the sort of the unusual possibilities that Johannesburg creates. The gold rush, creating, I suppose, the unusual possibility of instant wealth for some and very hard work for others. And then this problem-solving mentality that has this ability to unleash unusual possibilities. Then this opposition to apartheid there, the possibility of overthrowing a brutal and violent and determined regime. But then the possibilities of new things emerging, whether it's Nando's or its Investec, or its other kinds of ventures, and, of course, everything that's happening in the creativity scene. In Johannesburg, I get this sense of instant possibility being shaped through the plans that you've described. What a fascinating place.

Lael Bethlehem 

It really is and you know, if one just thinks of it as one of Africa's great cities, it's an important city because Johannesburg unlike, I think, many other cities in South Africa has a large and growing black middle class. So one has the emergence in Johannesburg of a self-confident, stylish, creative class of people, including a very large number of black people. I think that I can't say that about very many cities, and I think there's not enough understanding internationally of Africa as a place of style, Africa as a place of fashion, Africa as a place of investment banking, you know. That world is often hidden from people when they think about African cities. African cities are often associated with the problems of developing countries. People don't often think of those aspects of urban life and Johannesburg is a very exciting urban place. Whatever problems we face, and there are many, we also have an enormously stylish, design-centred and vibrant city that is home to a great deal of creativity.

Greg Clark 

And it's such an exciting place because of all of that. It does create this sense of opportunity and change, doesn't it? That's so key. Lael, I want to ask you the fourth question, which may involve you saying some things you've already said. But we're looking for nominations for cities that we should have in the next series and the series that will follow of the DNA of cities layer, what are your nominations for us?

Lael Bethlehem 

Well, there are so many wonderful cities that I would like to learn more about. Before I tell you what those are, I just do want to say that I found the episodes on Shanghai to be particularly interesting. I had never visited Shanghai. But having listened to the episodes, I really felt I had such an insight into that city and what has given birth to it. Some of the debates some of the issues that people they face, it felt like a really privileged window on that city, which is a city that I know so little about. I would like to request going forward, that when cities are introduced, that there is a little more description. In other words, there's wonderful analysis of these cities. But I would appreciate a little more description that we can also use to compare them to each other. How big are they? What are the populations? What are their population densities? How much public open space do they have? Do they have big, big central areas of high rise buildings? Or are they more polycentric? Those sorts of infamous those sorts of areas of information and metrics, to me would be would be very useful. So I'd like to know more about some of the cities of the developing world. I would like to nominate Rio and perhaps a Bogotá. So some of the great cities of Latin America, I think Delhi would be a fascinating city to know more about, and then perhaps some of the other great African cities, Nairobi, would be one, Lagos would be another, Cairo would be a third. You know, that's a lot of cities. But I think that to move into some of the developing world cities would be very exciting.

Greg Clark 

Well, I'm going to say yes, yes, yes. Very helpful to have your comment that we should do a little bit more on the metrics of the city at the start, we will. We will also of course, focus a lot more on cities in the global south in the next set of episodes. We will certainly include some of Rio, Bogotá, Delhi, Nairobi, Lagos, Cairo and of course, Johannesburg, which you were modest enough not to propose. But many people have said Johannesburg should be in our next series. So don't worry, it's already been nominated. Lael, such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much. We're so glad that you're one of our listeners, and we look forward to hearing you as one of the participants in a future episode as well.

Lael Bethlehem 

Truly, it's a wonderful way to get to know a bunch of cities. I also really enjoyed by the way the Philadelphia episodes, which is the city I know very little about, and suddenly I've got a whole new window. So really, thank you for doing this.