Mariana Barros

Caitlin Morrissey 

So Mariana, what is the DNA of São Paulo?

Mariana Barros

You started by the hardest one!

Caitlin Morrissey 

We like to dive in.

Mariana Barros

São Paulo is a city of multiples DNAs. That's what make it wonderful for some and hell for others because it's a city very difficult to resume in one sentence, one kind, one type of people. We have a very rich mix set of cultures because of the immigrants that came to Brazil, especially after second war. So after the first war, we receive a lot of immigrants, especially from Europe, and second war, it repeated again. But those on the second war, they came to be kind of businessmen. They didn't know it was going to happen, of course, but that’s what came. They started to sell things and open little stores. Some started to create project, architect projects, so we'll talk about that later on. But the city got a kind of boom after this. So small businesses, stores, and some of them started to think about architecture projects. Because we didn't have buildings. We had a few buildings, but it wasn't like today, that we have a lot of buildings in the city. So they started to see opportunities in real estate, and we saw the city boom after the 50s and 60s. So it was a very important time for São Paulo because this mixture of cultures started to boiling. So we have a lot of Japanese too, that came here. We have the biggest Japanese cologne outside Japan, and a lot of European immigrants from Jewish cultures and Asian too. So it's a place that you can’t define a identity because we have so much different influences. As Brazil was colonised by Portugal, so we have a very cultural too. So it's very, rich in terms of references and we have a very important African legacy too because of the slaves that came-- the colony brought at the time of that Brazil was Portugal's colony, and that came especially in religious approaches and our ceremonies and the way we see life, it's very marked by African culture. So all this together, we can see, if we go out on the streets today, it's very alive. It's very easy to recognise, to see it. It's alive in the life of people, that it's here in different neighbourhoods, in different economic classes, economic groups. So it's a city that makes you feel a little tired sometimes because of too much reference all the same time.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you so much for getting us started with such a terrific answer. I just want to pick up immediately on something you said there, which is about the Iberico culture in São Paulo, those Portuguese influences that were colonially introduced. How do they sort of manifest themselves in the city and the cultural identity of the city today?

Mariana Barros

I think the religious thing is still important. So we are a Catholic country, even though evangelical religions are getting bigger every year. Today, politicians look very closely to this group, evangelical people. So I think the way we see religion, it's still a legacy from the colonial period, even though it's not the same religion or the same. Untill today, I think it's something that it's very close to us. In our language, we say, ‘thank God’ every time. We say little things that shows it's very present. And I think the houses still have some-- I think the way we build homes, not the space, but the feel. We want to make everybody feel comfortable. We want to welcome everybody. We like to visit friends, visit parents. We are very connect to each other. And I think that kind reflects that too.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Sounds like a culture of congregating in a way--

Mariana Barros

Exactly.

Caitlin Morrissey

-- and so, the building of homes also reflects that. That's really fascinating. So you mentioned at the beginning it's part of the joy and also the hell of São Paulo is that there's so much to it. It's such a multicultural city, particularly. But what makes São Paulo, São Paulo? How many different São Paulo's are there? Is there one, are there many? It's a question that ranges in different scales, but we're trying to understand what the different sort of identities of the city and how they manifest in the way that you see it.

Mariana Barros

Yeah, I think São Paulo is unique because it's different, even if we compare to other cities in Brazil. Because, as I was saying, we receive a lot of immigrants, but other cities from Brazil also received immigrants. But São Paulo always have something that make it very distinguished from every other city around. We have an episode that illustrates very well. Today, it's a holiday, it's 9 of July. It's the day that São Paulo state decided to be independent from the rest of the country. So they decided they were so different that they should be apart. That is because, in grand part, São Paulo, it's economical potential. So we always-- not only the city, but all the region, the State of São Paulo always have had a very economical power. First, planting coffee and that make us important to national economy, and then with the evolving of business and industries, mainly industries, a lot of machines and fabrics of all the industries, of all the sectors. So it makes our economical potential still in 20th Century. And then this didn't disappear. It get stronger and bigger. So today, all the financial centre is in São Paulo, the banks and the big companies, the multinational companies are in São Paulo and nothing shows that it's gonna change. It's something that is very solid. In a lot of ways, São Paulo dominates Brazil economy, besides from agro-business. That is not here, it's in other parts of the country. All that it's related to companies and financial services are based in São Paulo. So São Paulo, it's different from other parts of the world because it has that mixture of cultures, and it's different from other parts, from of Brazil because it has this potential force, this economical force that make it very unique when we compare to other regions.

Greg Clark 

Mariana, what you're saying is really fascinating and I want to check that I understood because I think you are now answering that question, what is the thing that really is the uniqueness of São Paulo? What makes São Paulo, São Paulo? And you've already said it's very difficult to summarise this because of this huge diversity and complexity, which is-- which makes a lot of sense. And I think you're saying that because São Paulo has this very dominant position within the Brazilian economy and within the Brazilian system of cities and regions, it's in a kind of locked in position where it will always be the primary magnet for investment, for businesses, for knowledge, for talent, for capital, in relation to the whole of Brazil, and it's got this population diversity that comes from its history. So it's this combination of diversity, global reach, scale and magnetic power within Brazil. And I think I understood what you said. And the only question I would ask is, isn't that the same thing that New York has in the USA or London has in the UK or Singapore has in Southeast Asia? Isn't that the same? Is São Paulo's version of this different somehow?

Mariana Barros

Yeah, that's a good question, Greg. I think it's different because where we are in South America, so we have special things here that don't apply to other places. So we have our past, mainly centred on agro-- it wasn't agro-business, of course, but on farms. And we have a very slowly transformation to industries and still today, it's not something that it walks by itself. We are not the first option to investors from all over the world. São Paulo is not the first option. We have London and New York as first options, for example, but São Paulo, it's not. At the same time, we didn't develop as South Korea, that wasn't our first option and, because it has so much investment in education, they learn how to make opportunities come through. We didn't.

So I think São Paulo has a resilience that make it very unique because it seems like everything else is against, but still, São Paulo shows its strength. São Paulo keeps maintaining like a magnet, as you said, I think it's very well put, not only to the world but also inside Brazil. So a lot of people that were born in other places, in other regions of Brazil came to São Paulo to work, to study, to live better. It makes me always remember the Edward Glaeser book when he said the triumph of city, that he said that cities do not create poverty. They are magnets for people that wants to run from poverty. So that's what happened here. I think it's summarised very well what happened to São Paulo. So we have a lot of kind of workers; we have high-end workers that are people that has degrees abroad, that were to international schools, we have a elite, intellectual elite and economical elite in São Paulo, people that are very well-formed, and we have people that are searching for any kind of job, any kind of opportunity. They came to São Paulo because here things are easier to find out. So we have a lot of drivers, app drivers like Uber and others, and we have a lot of real estate construction that it's getting-- each way we have less workers are interested in keep on construction sites, but still, is a occupation. We have ladies that work in houses like helping with children, helping with the cleaning. I think it's Portuguese heritage too, Caitlin, when we still have maids in a lot of houses in Brazil, it's something very cultural here. It's something very normalised. So they are paid. We have a lot of laws for this kind of job, but it's something that we don't see in other countries anymore. We still have it very frequent here, of course, to privilege classes, not for everybody.

Greg Clark 

Mariana, this is a great answer, by the way. Thank you. And I think what I heard you say is three things. I'm just going to repeat them back to you. That, yes, São Paulo is a little bit like New York or London or Singapore or another city that is the diverse global city in its continent, concentrating the business, the investment, and being culturally and ethnically diverse. But I think you said three things are different in the São Paulo context. One, the demand for a city of this kind is almost unlimited because of the number of people of low income, but with aspiration, who want a city that provides that mechanism. That, if you like, you know, London has a competitor in Paris. New York has a competitor in Singapore-- in Chicago or Miami, Singapore has a competitor in Hong Kong. But actually, São Paulo might be the only city in South America that really can do this. I think you said that. The second thing I think you said very clearly is that the concentration here is so great relative to the rest of the economy that there's now a kind of lock in, or a path dependency, that it has to be São Paulo because any other investment doesn't make sense in that way. You're adding to an agglomeration that is very powerful in itself. And then, I think the third thing that you said that was very clear, was that the income structure in the population allows for both people who are prosperous to do well, but also people on low incomes to get up so that the ladder is still working. We might argue in New York or in London, this ladder, this accelerating ladder, doesn't work so well anymore. Did I understand what you said?

Mariana Barros

Yeah, except for the ladder because I think it doesn't work very well. I think we are some years behind what is happening to New York or London in that kind of view. But we don't see people really getting better formal education. Usually people study very few, only for the very early years in school. And so yes, they can find a way to pay their bills but it doesn't mean they getting better to offer different kinds of activities, different kinds of jobs. Sometimes, if you were born poor, you will die poor, a little better than you were born because of all your effort and-- basically because of all your effort, but it doesn't mean you change very significantly. We're not like United States, that people really can be a self-made man, self-made woman. It's more complicated here because we don't have infrastructure. We don't have a good service, public service, like education, I think. Health, I think we are a little better. But education, not. A lot of children get out of from school and they don't know really how to read and write properly. So it's very difficult to find good positions in that situation.

Greg Clark 

Very clear, Mariana, so I'm going to delete that third point and say, actually, it's the two points that you made. It's that São Paulo offers this big range of income earning opportunities in a very large labour market for the whole country where people really need it. And secondly, that the power of the concentration is so deep that it would take a long time, if you ever could, to unbundle it. The concentration is so powerful relative to the other cities in Brazil and Latin America. And it's the dominance of São Paulo in relation to those two things that is the unique thing. I think you've said.

Caitlin Morrissey 

So I'll move back onto the list now Mariana to ask you about the role of the key geological or geographical features in the region that have shaped the city as it's evolved. And part of the reason why we ask this question is to understand what's really continuous and innate about this place, about the place that existed before the city did. And so there we begin to focus a little bit more on things like climate, soils and natural resources. So can you tell us a little bit about some of the geographical features and some of the climatic features that have shaped the city as it has evolved?

Mariana Barros

Yeah, of course. São Paulo, it's a city that were born in a field. But we have a little geographic situation that important avenues of the city are on hills. So we have Paulista Avenue that we call Espigão. That means the highest mountain. So Avenida Paulista is a very important reference for everybody that lives in São Paulo because when it was created in 19th century, it has big houses from farmers that had farmers outside, but they want to have a house in the city. They are very rich families that have mentions in Avenida Paulista and this avenue, it was transformed as the time went by. So first these big houses, and then after that, buildings and buildings from industries to have the offices of important companies and multinational companies. And then after that, we have a decline of Avenida Paulista as a financial centre. Today, our financial centre is another avenue called Avenida Faria Lima. It's where all the banks are, and Google is there, Meta is there. And Avenida Paulista started to grow as a popular centre, so it's where people like to walk on the weekends, they close the street to the cars so we can ride bikes, skate and trawlers. And it's an avenue that have four or five museums, cultural institutions. So we have MASP that is Museu de Arte de São Paulo, it's one of the most important museums of Brazil. It's in Avenida Paulista. And we have a lot of subway stations that it makes very easy to get there. São Paulo, it's a city that is very big in terms of territory, so when we have the subway, it helps a lot people from different parts of the city to go there. And that's what makes Avenida Paulista, very special.

Outside of Avenida Paulista that I think it's a common place for everybody, we have Parque Ibirapuera. That it's another place very dear for everybody that lives in the city. It's kind of our Central Park. So we have big buildings, residential buildings that are very expensive. And from them, from there, you can see the park. And the park, used by everybody, but it doesn't have subway station nearby, so it kind of make a little bit harder to go there. And besides those two places, in my opinion, we don't have a lot of common places that we frequent, that we go because the city is so big that it's so difficult for you to cross it. You can drive four, three hours, and you don't get out from-- you don't get-- you don't cross São Paulo, even if you have a good traffic that it's not what regularly happen. So usually, where people are born, is the where they like to live their lives. They just go there. They just go out to work when they need to. But on holidays and weekends, they stay nearby. So it's a city that it's kind of closed in different regions, we don't change very much. So we have a neighbourhood that it's called Mooca neighbourhood. It's in the east and everybody that lives there say it's island different from São Paulo because it's better from all the rest of the city. We had a kind of like a cheers from different neighbourhoods, people that prefer one neighbourhood, people that prefer another, people that were born in one neighbour, and they spent all their life there, we have this very strong here. So the geographical condition, it's not so determinant when you don't cross the city a lot. So people usually stay nearby where they were born, where they are used to, where the families live, where their family live now, they know already where it is.

Caitlin Morrissey 

It's really interesting for you to say that, but it prompts another question in my mind, about the way that people think about the rest of the city from the vantage point of their neighbourhood. So, for example, in London, Greg and I are both from North London, and it's seen as quite a big-- well, Greg is from South London, actually, but has moved to the North. I'm from the North. My brother moved South, and it was extremely controversial. Do you have-- are there ways of understanding the city like that, so in terms of the different identities of different parts of the city, sometimes it's north and south. In other cities, it's east and west. And what are the sort of-- if that is the case, what are the sort of markers of those different place-based identities in the city?

Mariana Barros

Okay. We have the East Region that it's the most populated one. Mooca is in that region. So we have subway. We have subway stations there. But the main territory of east zone, it doesn't have subway. It's very hard to travel there because it's very big too. We have the south that we have Parque Ibirapuera in the south. So some parts of the south, they are very rich. They have lot of-- one of the neighbourhoods there that have the most expensive place for real estate is in this area, that it's Vila Nova Conceição, very close to the Ibirapuera park. But if we go down to the south, we start to see little, little rural properties. So people plant things, very small things. But it's curious, because you still are in the city of São Paulo, in a place that we have rural properties. And there is one point in the south that we can go to one of the mountains that had there. You can see the ocean from there. We are not so close to the ocean, like 100 kilometres, but it's, you can see it. So it's very-- it's a sense of nature is very different. Have some Indians there. I don't know if it's correct to say that, but we have some tribal communities there in the south too, so it's kind of shocking. And when we go to the north, we have a kind of residential kind of neighbourhoods. They have infrastructure. It's a good place to live, but it's not so full of people. It's more quiet. And in the west, we have the financial district, and we have a lot of gastronomical attractions, restaurants on Michelin Guide, those kinds of things. So west is kind of one of the most-- how can I say that? It's a very desirable region in São Paulo to live, although it's more expensive.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you for setting all of that out.

Greg Clark 

I want to ask Mariana to talk about the architectural styles, the design, the vernacular as it were, of São Paulo, or the multiple vernaculars, and what sort of ideas about the city and the people, the architecture and the urban design is sort of representing and promoting.

Mariana Barros

I think we have important architecture legacy in São Paulo. We have buildings that were made long time ago, and they're still very beautiful. And they reflect this moment when São Paulo made a transition from agriculture place to a financial industry-- industrial first, industrial reference, and they are all in the centre of São Paulo. But unfortunately, we didn't learn how to preserve those memories, those spaces. So we have a lot of buildings that, although they are very important for our memory as a legacy, they don't have a function very well defined. So in a lot of cases, we see they abandoned and bad preserved and with not properly maintaining so it's very sad to see this part of the city that it's very important for us to understand who we are, like in second, third place, in priorities. And as the real estates are not developing anything. But as the real estates are not looking to the centre of the city, looking for opportunities to development, we can get through that problem. The buildings are still there and nothing has happened to them. It's difficult to imagine what will be there in 10 years, 20 years. But the real estate look to other places, especially in Faria Lima region. And the architecture today is not very innovative. So you will see a lot of glass buildings. We see a lot, still a mentality of using walls separating the public space from the common ground from these buildings. So it's something that is changing slowly, but it's not a transformation that we can really enjoy still. I think developers, they are changing their mentality. They are understanding that they need to be more open to the city, but we still didn't get to the point that it's really happening to all the city. I think in architecture, it's main quest, main issue in São Paulo, I think we are struggling. But in some places it happened more than in other places that we still have a very clear division of what is public on the street and what is private areas that they don't want anybody to be there, and it makes people feel less safe and they don't want to walk through. They don't see there are spaces that they belong to, they want to be so it's a delicate issue in São Paulo.

Greg Clark 

So, Mariana, I heard you really say two things. I'm just checking again. One, there is actually a rich architectural legacy, but it's not been very well managed or preserved or maintained, and it hasn't been used much to trigger sort of neighbourhood revitalisation. I remember going to the old market--

Mariana Barros

Mercado Municipal.

Greg Clark 

I remember that it was like a new idea to redevelop the area around the market, but to protect the heritage. So there hasn't been much of that. And then you're also saying that public space and private space is very delineated and very separated, and private space is not used to offer a. amenities to the public, and I understood that. Can we just talk a little bit about public space and public safety? Do you feel in São Paulo, is it regarded as a dangerous city? Is it regarded as a safe city? Are there certain parts of the city where a lot of people will walk at nighttime in the avenues and the public spaces or other places which are not safe. Can you just talk about this issue a little bit?

Mariana Barros

Yeah, of course. I just want to add something that when I was talking about maintain building, I was thinking about public buildings because we have residential buildings that are perfect, and we have residential buildings from the mid-century that are still impeccable. So it kind of finding who wants to maintain it and find people that really see the point on preserving that kind of memory.

But talking about feeling safe. I think São Paulo, it's not different from any big city. Of course, we have poverty here, so it's not because of poverty but inequality makes a lot of situations sound delicate. So if you feel that you have a cell phone in a place that nobody has a cell phone-- today, in São Paulo, everybody has any kind of cell phone, but if you have a iPhone that nobody has, those kind of-- if you are walking with a notebook, you have to pay attention. You really have to know where you are. You need to see what is happening. But I think it's not very different from what happened in other big cities in the world. I don't think it's worse. And even in Brazil, it's not worse than other places. I think I feel safer in a lot of places in São Paulo because São Paulo is so full of people that it makes you feel you're not alone. It's very hard to be alone in São Paulo. So if you walk at night, you know where to walk at night, you know where the people will be, you know where the places will have services until midnight, and those kinds of things. So I think it's only you need to know where you are, but you can go out, you can go to nightclubs, you can go to restaurants, you can come back late. It's not a problem. It's not something that you feel that you're in a worse situation than other big cities.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you. I just wanted to follow up, Mariana with something that you mentioned towards the beginning of this conversation, which was this, you mentioned the celebrating on the 9th of July, the attempt at São Paulo to become independent from Brazil which prompted me to think about, how does São Paulo see itself in Brazil? Is it still rebellious? Could you talk a little that sort of relationship between the city and the federal, or the country?

Mariana Barros

Yeah. São Paulo has a big rivolity. I don't know if it's correct to say that, but our rival is Rio de Janeiro because everybody thinks of Brazil, ‘Oh, Rio de Janiero’ but we are not Rio de Janeiro. So it's something that we need to make very clear when people from abroad talks about Brazil. A lot of people thinks here with the capital of Brazil, and they think it's the biggest city in Brazil, and when we compare São Paulo to Rio, there is no comparison because we have 12 million people living here, and Rio have half of that. So it's a very bit smaller. And economically, we can't compare either because São Paulo has all the big companies, a lot of big companies, and it's not comparable to Rio. So I think the rivolity still happen in some way. We usually joke about São Paulo in Paulistanos, that while we call people that were born in São Paulo, Paulistanos love to work and Carioca that were born in Rio de Janeiro, they don't. They like to go to the beach. So we always joke about that. And they said it's because we don't have anywhere to go so that's why we work. We don't have beaches. We don't have a good climate because it rains a lot. Today, it's raining a lot. It rains all the time, so it's not sunny as Rio de Janerio. We don't have the nature, so beautifully present as Rio de Janeiro. Today it's more a joke than something serious, as it was on the Revolution.

Even with the Federal Government, they are dependent. They depend on São Paulo to deliver all the economic results to the country. So it's not something that it's really serious today. It's only okay, we need to work here. Let's make it the way we can. And São Paulo, economically, it's kind of threatened by the agro-business because it really happened in the few, I think, I don't know, ten or five years from now, agro-business grows a lot in participation in our economy. So São Paulo is trying to find its place in Brazil, trying to find its place when comparing to other regions and cities. But it's still, it's the more complete economy in city economy in the country because it has a lot of options, a lot of sectors involved.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And what is the relationship, as you see it, between São Paulo and other South American cities that are Spanish speaking, and how does its Portuguese and Iberico culture, how do you sort of see those manifesting differently? And what sort of relationships as it has with other cities, Spanish speaking and culturally Spanish, in its region?

Mariana Barros

I think Brazil, Brazilians don't have that sense of identity as Latin America so strong because of the language. I think it's very difficult for us to speak Portuguese and the others speak Spanish. So the communication is not so easy. The culture is very different because they came from Spanish culture, and they have other special traditions that we don't have here. So I don't think we have the identity of one big region called South America. We feel very apart in the way we see it. So I don't, I don't know if it's a problem. I think because of the dimensions of Brazil we are a continental dimension, so we are not a small country trying to figure out what is going to happen. It's a big country with a lot of potential. But, still, the language make us feel like we are alone and the rest of the Latin America is something else. I think usually that's how Brazilians see the region.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And so has that prompted São Paulo, as you see it, to become more of a globally connected city because it doesn't have these relationships with its neighbours who speak a different language, recognising, as you just said, that Brazil is essentially the size of a continent in itself, it's so large and it has such large cities in it. But do you think that during sort of the late 20th century, these regional dynamics, perhaps prompted it to globalise in the way that it did industrially and economically?

Mariana Barros

Yeah, I think United States is the biggest reference for us. Brazilians, especially upper class, are fascinated for United States. It has always been that way, not only because of the economical power, but I think the way they see life. I think Brazilians feel connected to them. We have a president that looked a lot like Trump. Here in Brazil, we try to reproduce what the United States live in good and bad ways. I don't think, I'm not just saying they are a good example, I think, in things that are not good, we are doing the same thing. For example, not only on politics, as I said, but the way people eat. So usually, United States is remembered for the fast food, all the soda. We started to have that problem here in Brazil. So especially for people that has less income, they don't have money enough to buy fresh fruits, fresh vegetables, and so they use a lot of industrialised meals and fast food also. So today, I don't remember the data exactly, but I think more than half of the population has a problem with their weight. So it's a health problem from a public issue for the country, and I don't see it getting better too. I think it's getting worse because we see a lot of kids, they are above from weight and they are usually kids from less income. They don't have proper meals at home or even at school. So sometimes the school, the main role of the school is to offer meals to that kid, that kids, so the parents, they feel, oh, it's okay because I don't have to think about lunch. They will eat at school. It's not-- they are not so-- they are, of course, they are worried with education. But the role of school here in Brazil, it's bigger than only education. Sometimes it's extra for families so they can afford to offer the minimum that a kid needs to develop. So it's a bad situation, but we see that, and I think it's related to this attempted from Brazilian to reproduce American culture in several ways.

Greg Clark 

Mariana, I'm keen to know what you think are the big opportunities for São Paulo, you know, if you look ahead the next 20, 30, years, what would you like to see the city doing? But also, what are some of the, you know, the potential shocks or the bigger risks that the city faces? How would you see those?

Mariana Barros

I think the problem and solution of all the problems and solutions for São Paulo are inequality. I think, if we find ways to make those people live better, I think São Paulo has a bright future ahead. But if we don't, we will have several risks of have a future of problems in a lot of ways, climate changes and poverty, and it will be very hard to live in a place that people can make themselves, they can develop themselves. So I think it's a problem that belongs to all of us to make those people find ways to get better, to be better in life and have a more comfortable-- and I don't know whether, we talk about having their dreams come true. We don't need to make dreams come true, but we need to offer dignity. We need to offer proper conditions for that families to raise their children, for the adults have a happy life, a comfortable life, I think we are very far from that. And I think if we do that, I think we will have the key of all the development not only in São Paulo, but in Brazil. I think it's a problem that it's across the country, and it means we have big consumer markets to explore, and we need to know how to do that properly. So observing all the climate changes and observing all the social issues that are involved.