Professor Miguel Bucalem

Caitlin Morrissey 

So Miguel, what is the DNA of São Paulo?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, if I would like to single out one particular thing that I think is the DNA of São Paulo is opportunity. I think São Paulo is land of opportunity. And I think this opportunity usually is most linked to opportunity of work. But I think as São Paulo developed, I think this has broadened so now it's opportunity for education, opportunity for leisure, entertainment, culture, so an array of opportunities that are offered to people that join the city and this makes São Paulo as an attractor to new people. So if I would single out one thing: land of opportunity,

Caitlin Morrissey 

And unpacking that I think requires us to go a little bit further back in time to understand how all of these opportunities came to concentrate in this place. And so can you tell us about where this DNA, where this trait of opportunity, has come from?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, São Paulo is a city that has grown a lot. In 1920s, a hundred years ago, it had like 600,000 people, and two-thirds of that were immigrants, mostly from Europe, and the city has grown dramatically in the last century. During the 70s and 80s, it grew like 5% a year, so to become the city that's today with more than 11 million people. And in this process of the 70s and 80s, we attract a lot of people from other parts of Brazil, especially the northeast and they helped to grow São Paulo and they got integrated in the city. So we have a base of immigrants from Europe, and then people from other parts of Brazil, the northeast. And this, I think, establishes a very nice diversity, a melting pot that gives the strength of São Paulo as a diverse city.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And the scale of São Paulo is something to really recognise here, an 11 million people city inside a 20 million or more people region. And can you tell us a little bit about that, just what São Paulo means from that just enormous scale?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I think São Paulo now is a city that has different arrays of activities like it became from an industry city to a service city, and a service city focus on the new economy. We can identify some strategic sectors now. For example, the health sector is a very strategic sector now. If you look at the mass of salaries of income here, the health sector concentrates 10% of the mass salary of São Paulo. We have a strong financial sector. We have R&D sector. So we have strategic sectors that are in the high end of the service and the new economy. But also we have traditional sectors that are important to accommodate, also jobs of people that are not still so skilled of the point of view of education because São Paulo has, I think, stratified educational level. So of course, we want to transition mostly for the high end. But still, we need to give jobs to a lot of people that are not as skilled as the others, to give resilience to the city. So this is actually, I think the strength of São Paulo, it has the new economy flourishing and enhancing, but it still has some traditional sectors that give strength and accommodate jobs in a more wider way.

Greg Clark 

Miguel, I'm remembering hundreds of conversations you and I have had over the years. But let me ask you the question in a direct way. In the founding of São Paulo, when it became a city for the first time, I think I remember a discussion about the proximity to the Port of Santos being one of the ingredients. If you were to talk about why we have this city in this location, what would you say?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I think, as you said, we have this proximity, it’s like one hour but it actually fuel our industry. São Paulo is 700 metre high and the Port of Santos, of course, is on the coast. And we had some possibilities of very abundant energy generation because we're in the top, and we have a river like the Tietê and reservoirs that has this 700-metre drop that were able to generate energy, and this was easy to fuel our industry in the beginning. So São Paulo has an industrial past. Still, there are some industries around São Paulo now and in São Paulo, but of course, we are becoming a service city. But primarily in the last century, I think the conduct growth of São Paulo were linked to the industry, and the industry were linked, of course, to the possibility of the link with the port by rail and we had energy to work and to produce goods and so on.

Greg Clark 

Very clear, Miguel. So if I understood correctly, a highly habitable environment close to an international port that enabled industry to both benefit from goods coming in, but also to distribute them out, plus access to a naturally endowed energy system through the particularly hydraulic energy, I assume we're talking about or hydroelectric energy. And therefore, this combination creates a powerful mix that enables the city to emerge, firstly as an industrial centre, and then, as you've explained, as a knowledge centre and education centre, services and so much more, and now the innovation economy.

Miguel Bucalem

That's right. Very fine summary.

Greg Clark 

Well, of what you said. Then the second question is, so when did São Paulo become the biggest city in Brazil? Because we know it is now, but was there a time before when other cities were bigger or more important, or did São Paulo become the biggest city quite rapidly, you know, more than a hundred years ago?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, I think Rio de Janeiro was the leading city, the capital and so on. When we passed Rio de Janeiro in population, I'm really not, not really sure. But at some, at some point in the last century, with this very strong population growth in the 60s and 70s, São Paulo, of course, passed the other cities and became the economic capital of Brazil. And from then on, I think this tendency was reinforced, as I mentioned, changing, of course, the whole of São Paulo and the economy as a whole. But of course, there are other cities that are thriving and becoming important in Brazil too. Of course.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you. And just following up from Greg's question there about the proximity to Santos and how that shaped the City of São Paulo and its evolution as an industrial city. Is there something also for us to understand about São Paulo as being an inland location, a city located away from the coast. Is there anything important to understand about uniqueness of São Paulo in terms of its inland location relative to other coastal Brazilian cities?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, I think we have this connection, that was infrastructure investment to connect to the port. And I think the rivers were important to São Paulo, the Tietê river that goes to the interior. And I think this also was an important factor for the development. And then it was the crossroads that come from the interior and then to the port, so it was always a point of trade. If you look at the development, we can identify São Paulo being a port of trade that routes from the interior of the state, connected and then connected to the port and back.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And while we're still just on the topic of sort of São Paulo's economic emergence and industrial emergence. Just looking back a bit further at the manufacturing and trade of coffee from São Paulo, is there anything there to talk about, I've got one right here, so I'm totally interested in the São Paulo's place in the caffeine industry, but in terms of how that resource and the export of that resource has shaped the city, or anything that's been continuous from that trading time?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I think, for example, the leading people that had the industry of coffee or the coffee distribution they end up living in São Paulo. Although you have the farms that produce the coffee, people set up in São Paulo and the neighbourhoods that they were living in thrived and became very interesting neighbourhoods, and then it fosters some cultural activities with the, of course, the money and the income that come from coffee. So I think it was a starting point of generating an economic hub that actually benefit from these wealth people living in São Paulo, and creating a community that was eager for culture and commerce and so on. So I think it was the starting point of São Paulo as it evolved from there.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you. And picking up there a little bit on some of the things you've already said about the relationship between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. What role does São Paulo play in Brazil now, and how has that evolved, and what is distinctive about the role it plays relative to other Brazilian cities?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, I think what maybe distinct São Paulo from the others, in some sense, is the scale of some of the activities that we have, some high-end activities. So let's give an example. I think São Paulo has become a health centre. It has many world-class hospitals. It has many schools of medicine. It has pharmaceutical industries around. It has research on medicine. So I think to achieve this, you have to have scale and this is one of the, I think, the strong points of São Paulo. For example, also regarding the financial sector, I think it hosts most of the high-end financial firms. This is from, well, decades ago and keeps on going. Also, if we look at the companies from abroad, their headquarters are mostly in São Paulo. And so I think the new economy, I think, is hosted more in São Paulo when we compare to other cities. Not that it's not present in other cities, but I think the scale of their development in São Paulo and the interactions that are enabled for them to be in São Paulo. Consulting services is also a very strong area now that's hosted in São Paulo. So if I would single out a thing is that high-end services are now very present in São Paulo, it's an ecosystem that links to the universities, the support of R&D. We have a very strong foundation, FAPESP, that supports research in many areas.

São Paulo actually is the centre of a much larger region in São Paulo. We have the São Paulo as the city, the metropolitan region with 38 cities, more than 20 million people, and then what we call the Macrometropolis Paulista, which is São Paulo, plus two other or three other metropolitan regions and urban agglomerations. That brings this total to 30 million people. That's three-quarters of the population of the State of São Paulo. And as you go from this outer of this region, it’s maybe one-hour drive from São Paulo, all this region. And when you go from there to São Paulo, there is an economic concentration that we can appreciate. But they are linked to this wider region and interact with this wider region. So, for example, the industry that has left São Paulo because of the land prices and externalities that do not make the most appropriate place for industries now in São Paulo, they have moved but for like 100 kilometres from São Paulo. They continue to interact with São Paulo, but they are not actually inside the city any longer, but they continue interaction. I think that makes some of the strength of this city, a much wider region that's very well-connected. And economic flows are very intense.

Greg Clark 

Miguel, by the way, your answers are absolutely brilliant, and we're really enjoying this. You mentioned universities, and I'd like you just to talk a little bit more about that. What is the pattern, the quality and the specialisation of São Paulo's universities? And how does that compare with the rest of the university system in Brazil? I think that São Paulo is a big knowledge and research and teaching hub, but I want to just check if you think that as well.

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, let's be fair. I think there are very good universities outside São Paulo, but again, it's a matter of scale. Universidade de São Paulo is a very large university, and it is responsible for a great part of the academic output and scientific papers and research that lead to innovation and improvement in the process of the production sector. So the University of São Paulo, I think it's important to the city and important to the economic ecosystem that it sits in. We have also in Campinas, a very good university Unicamp and there is a state university called UNESP that has company in many cities. The University of São Paulo also is spread in the State of São Paulo, but has its main campus in the city. I think this is actually propelled also by the support that FAPESP, that's our research funding agency, can give to the research in the University of São Paulo, and in the other state universities in São Paulo. So we are well-equipped, have strong support for everyone that wants to be productive. They will be able to get funds. So I think this gives an edge of São Paulo to prepare itself to adapt to the changes of the new economy, I think.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And I want to sort of ask a question now about the social identity of the city in relation to Brazil because I think you mentioned that 100 years ago, São Paulo was a city with two-thirds of immigrants making up its population. It's a much larger and mixed city today, and it's very Brazilian in the sense that migrants from across the country have moved to the city to kind of capture the opportunities. But I think I read recently that São Paulo is home to the largest Japanese, Arab and Italian diaspora, so it's a very multicultural city. I think I read that it's got more Italians than Rome, a quirk like that. So can you tell us about São Paulo, the social identity of the city and also, then its relationship to being a Brazilian city?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I think this is one thing that is a huge strength of São Paulo. Actually, we mapped a few years ago, maybe 10 years ago, when we are doing an effort of looking at these 70 different countries that have communities here and of course, bring to this, they bring their culture, their traditions, and they are fully integrated. That's the thing. Although we have Italian, Lebanese, Japanese, Korean and so on, we can name maybe 70, but they are fully integrated in São Paulo. They cherish their culture, their values but they feel Paulistanos. They feel that this is their home. Now we think that we are in the third generation or fourth generation, so they are fully integrated. One thing is that people that are born here, it's not they are always looking for opportunities. They like to stay in São Paulo. I think people that are born here, generally stays in São Paulo and keep on contributing to the city. So these cultures that are here are fully integrated, but their diversity brings a lot up to the city. And the people that came from other parts of Brazil are also integrated. Of course, we have issues that we might talk of, precarious housing and so on and so on, but I think that people in general are integrated even if they come from different backgrounds. It's not so recent. So they had time to mix and integrate and be fully in a city community, actually.

Greg Clark 

Miguel, to be Brazilian, does it have a kind of ethnic idea, or is to be Brazilian to be multiethnic? So if you're a Lebanese Brazilian or a Japanese Brazilian or an Italian Brazilian, you still feel as Brazilian as any other Brazilian. Is that the case? I think this is a question, not a statement, rather than the idea that everyone is integrated into being Brazilian, actually, everybody is integrated because to be Brazilian is to be from these diverse backgrounds. Can you just say a little bit about that? Because in some countries, there's the strong idea of what is the ethnic nationality of the nation, and then other people are allowed to join. But I think you might be saying something different.

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I think you posed very well. I think it's multiethnic people they feel that they are Brazilian, and this background, this mix of background is part of being Brazilian not something that you should keep. Well, I myself, I have Lebanese origin, Italian and Spanish so and I feel completely Paulistano. And I think this is not my story. I think the story of people that live here.

Caitlin Morrissey 

Thank you for saying that. It's a really fascinating conversation that comes up in different ways in different cities that we've looked at. I want to move on now to this question about São Paulo's most world-changing inventions, innovations or discoveries. And to just frame that question to ask you, is this a place where discoveries emerge? And if so, what are some of the most world-changing discoveries? Or because of the scale of this place is this a city that ideas from elsewhere come to find scale and benefit from the advantages of the city being so large to provide a sort of platform for these ideas to now gain attention in a marketplace. So maybe there's a bit of both. But what's your sense on that? Is this a place where discoveries are made or is it where they come to scale?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, I think maybe where they come to scale. I think we have a platform, as we mentioned, by the scale of the R&D, the scale of the educational universities. We have University of São Paulo, but we have other private universities. We have all these research institutions. So I think São Paulo creates, I think a place that discovers innovations and developments come from people that are in this ecosystem of education and research, so. And if they come from-- ideas come from abroad, they might get improved or developed here or inside these places that they are naturally born. So I feel that São Paulo is hosting a lot of institutions that can produce innovation and discovery and research, in some sense.

Caitlin Morrissey 

And I suppose there's a question here, just in terms of the way that São Paulo has just grown so dramatically over the past century and the surrounding region that it's in. And I guess building on from this question about discoveries, I guess it now is a place for innovations to scale because it is such a large city, but perhaps 100 years ago, it may not have been such a place because it was a city of 600,000 people. And I suppose the question I'm trying to get to is, what in that time, what sort of characteristics or traits over this enormous expansion and rapid expansion, what sort of characteristics has the city acquired in that time, going from being a city of 600,000 people to a city of 11 million people in a region of 20 million in a megamacro region of 30 million. How has the city evolved in that time, would you say? Because it's a pretty profound transformation.

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, I would say that as it evolved from an industrial city to a service city. I think the cultural sector, the entertainment sector, the possibility of interaction and diversity, I think, changed a little bit the city. I think the industry city, I think was a city, of course, of people working more, and now I think we have a city that is very diverse, we’ve a young generation that are really looking to entertainment, to leisure, to cultural activities. And this actually can be seen in the numbers of events, cultural events, venues of entertainment and a cultural event shows. I think São Paulo is a very vibrant city. You can go out every night, and you can always go to places that are happenings that are an interaction of young people. I think this is something that I note that São Paulo have changed and enhanced culturally and the vibrance of the city. I don't know if that was the kind of quest—answer you were looking for. But if I think about the changes that happen I think we are moving more to a culture of entertainment, a city that it was previously.

Caitlin Morrissey 

I didn't ask that question with any predetermined answers in my mind, so it was completely over to you for that one. I suppose the flip side of that question may be even more difficult to answer, but is there anything that you can distil as being continuous through São Paulo as it has evolved over time, whether those be sort of cultural traits, ways of relating to the geography of the city?

Miguel Bucalem

Related to the geography of the city, I think the rivers were very important. São Paulo has a lot of rivers, small rivers and so on, but has three large rivers, and these rivers had been rectified of course, they were sinuous, curved, and they were made like a channel. And when they're made like a channel, there are two opportunities, they placed large avenues beside the rivers. And industrial land was available beside the rivers. And actually, because of the plain topography beside the rivers, the train, the trains were implemented. So this actually had good effects, in some sense because it provided elements for economic development, but also from the environment perspective it was bad because you really took the river beds and established some barriers that are difficult to cross. But that happened. Now we are faced with how to integrate the rivers to the city. And this has repeated in a smaller scale, in many other small rivers. So it's very common to have these avenues besides the valley, besides the river, which is bad from the environmental perspective. So in some sense, São Paulo developed rapidly through this act because it established a road system, it established some transport system to the trains to enable, induce the industry to develop, but it creates some barriers, some river beds that are fully urbanised and flawed. But that's what happened. So the rivers structured a little bit the development of the city through these actions that I mentioned. Now the industry has been leaving the city to the outskirts or to nearby locations. These are prime areas for redevelopment, so our opportunity areas. So we can, I think, trace some of the challenges and opportunities to the way the rivers were occupied and how the infrastructure were established around these rivers.

Greg Clark 

Miguel, I want to bring you back to something you already said. You mentioned the high level of informality. And I think you're alluding to the fact that, you know, the population growth was so big, and in a sense, at certain points in the recent history, the city was overwhelmed by the population growth. And maybe you just would like to characterise that challenge a little bit, say what that is, what percentage of the population is living in informal settlements? What are the social conditions for those people? What are the degrees of inequality? But also, perhaps just to say something about where you think progress is being made and how it's being made, and in a sense, what is the still on the to-do list of São Paulo? If you just give us a kind of report card from Miguel on the city, that would be really good on these issues. Then I have a couple of other questions for you.

Miguel Bucalem

Thank you, Greg, for the thoughts and the opportunity. What happened? Around 30% of São Paulo population, of the 11 million, are in precarious housing in the outskirts of the city, and we need actually to urbanise these areas. Urbanise being bringing adequate infrastructure, sanitation, services, well, all what we need to integrate those regions in the city so they become really cities there. And I think this process has started. We have very nice examples of precarious settlements that have been urbanised, and now they function well. But the scale is challenging, and I think it's some place that the city government has really to make it a priority to speed up this process because they have to be fully integrated in the city. It's sometimes it's amazing when we look at a particular precarious housing because they are very ingenious. They have economic activities in their places. They produce, for example, Paraisópolis, with one of the largest. There are two very large slums in São Paulo, Paraisópolis and Heliópolis and others, are large, but not as large as these. For example, Paraisópolis is around, say, 100,000 people and there you have, like, thousands of commercial spots, hundreds of beauty saloons. And there is economic activities inside of these slums, but they could be much more productive. They could participate much more on the economy if you could provide basic infrastructure, access to health, to sanitation that are lacking or are insufficient on these areas. So I think it's an area that I would say that should be top priority. Urbanise these lands, integrate them to the formal city as quickly as possible. They are connected to the city. People work on the city. They have their activities there, but they are not taking full advantage of being in the City of São Paulo, and I think this is a pressure issue. And when you look to the growth, they grow faster than the rest of the city.

So we also have to create a smart way to accommodate this growth. For example, we have places that the subway system arrives close to these precarious areas, so this could be opportunity to have hubs of development to employ part of these people and to give housing to these people that are growing, to accommodate the growth in areas that have infrastructure. So I think there are opportunities, but it's a matter of giving more priority to speed up this urbanisation process. Depending on the government, it is very much prioritised or not. And I think this could not be, has always been very much prioritised. So that's an important issue for the City of São Paulo, a huge challenge. And I think has to give attention. Then I have other suggestions to policy in the future when we continue our conversation.

Greg Clark 

Very good. Let's come back to your other suggestions in a moment. I'm going to ask you one other question first, Miguel. One of the things I learned from you 15 years ago was that São Paulo is one of the cities that has successfully changed its spatial model. It began as a city with one centre, the historic centre, and it has successfully developed at least two other business districts, Paulista and Faria Lima, if I'm not mistaken. And I learned all of this from Miguel, Caitlin, so he's pleased to see his student has remembered.

So tell us, will you tell us a little bit, Miguel, about how the decision to change the spatial model of São Paulo emerged, and what was learned in the process of doing that? What happened?

Miguel Bucalem

Yeah, Greg is always very generous. So he has a strong knowledge, and he's keen to share this strong knowledge with others. But Greg, you're perfectly correct. We have these three business districts now, and the central business district in the downtown, over to Paulista and then to Faria Lima and more Berrini-Chucri. That's an axis of development. I think one ingredient there was to be able to give incentives especially to the Faria Lima district to foster, through what we have as urban operations, which is innovation, that's urban innovation from São Paulo, that's now something that is applied, also where in Brazil. But is a way to select an area that has potential but has imbalances, and you allow this area to densify, but you will-- to allow this densification, you got funds to that. So these funds are invested to the infrastructure that makes compatible with this density intensification. So we had our urban operation. Two urban operations. One is Faria Lima and the other Água Espraida, which actually fostered this business district. And now this is a large business district that has the financial sector, tech companies and so on, and the real estate industry that were mobilised to provide spaces, corporate spaces for these developments were fuelled by these urban plant operations. Of course, they have some pitfalls, but it's an evolution process. I think they were able to create this third business district, Paulista. I think was a natural evolution from downtown. We had a line of subway under Paulista, and it's a very nice avenue in the top of the hill and so on. So it was more natural than this other one, which was incentivised. And these urban operations, I think, helped to foster their establishment and it's still under development. This business district is under development, but I think it has configured as a huge business district and that has been evolved with these urban instruments and keep on going.

Greg Clark 

Great. Thank you, Miguel. So we've got two more questions. Earlier on, you talked about the relationship between São Paulo and some of the other cities in Brazil. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about São Paulo's similarities and differences with some other big cities in Latin America. If we were to take Mexico City, Bogotá, Buenos Aires, Lima, just as sort of five, how is São Paulo similar or different to those cities? And then my next question will be, which are the other cities around the world that São Paulo feels it's a little bit similar to. But let's do the first question first, the Latin American cities. Is it similar or different to any of those cities in particular ways?

Miguel Bucalem

Well, let's see. I think there are similarities, especially with regarding to precarious housing. I think maybe in Mexico City and in the Colombian cities, Medellín and Bogotá, you had this challenge of precarious housing. And I think there are interesting examples, I think especially in Colombia, I think they had made very good progress on integrating these communities to the city. So I think how to deal with precarious housing, how to integrate with the city, we can establish links with these cities, I think with Buenos Aires, I think immigration from European countries in early stage that shaped a little bit the city. I think some Buenos Aires is like a Parisian city here in the south hemisphere. But also the metropolitan region now has challenges that they have to deal with. But I think this, I would say that how to integrate and how to deal with precarious housing is an issue that links maybe São Paulo, the Colombian cities, and Mexico, in some sense, maybe challenges that are not equal, but we can maybe interact and learn from each other how to deal with this challenge,

Greg Clark 

And then Miguel, the question of which other cities around the world does São Paulo think it is like?

Miguel Bucalem

I don't want to be pretentious, but of course, we've seen cities like when we look that São Paulo is looking to be a player in the new economy, of course, we look at London, New York and maybe Paris to be examples of success on these areas. So I think, not being pretentious, we feel that we have good examples of how the new economy can help these cities, and how the new economy are fully part of the London and New York and Paris life. For example, also this city like London and New York that are very much based on culture and entertainment. And we also can identify some prospects here to be part of this network of cities that bring entertainment, culture into their DNA. So we look at maybe London and New York as examples with, of course, the proper differences and the proper different scales that we have. But I think are examples to São Paulo when we look to the new economy, to the entertainment industry, the cultural industry.

Greg Clark 

Yeah, wonderful, Miguel. The last question was you also had some other recommendations for the future of São Paulo, ways that you think it could make improvements. Will you share some of those with us?

Miguel Bucalem

Of course, my pleasure. I think São Paulo has still a good, very good opportunity in the next 20 years. If we look to the demographics and to the estimates, São Paulo will grow still until 2040 and the accommodation of this growth, I think, should be done in a very smart way to be able to improve the urban form. São Paulo has a very adverse urban form, people lives in general, far from the jobs, and we have redevelopment areas that can be improved by this less fuel that we have, that's the population growth. And I think this should be a priority to wisely select the areas and to give the proper incentives that we can redevelop these areas to accommodate population in a wise way. So I think this is something that-- because if we look, we have now, if we look out to our planning, we have many options to do that, but if we do not concentrate on few of these options, this will be spread and there will be no effect. So I think this is something that, if I would say, what's the challenge for São Paulo regarding planning for the next years, is how to accommodate wisely this growth because these are less growth, and if we miss this opportunity, we will be condemned to a bad urban form forever.

Greg Clark 

Yes, that's a perfect sentence to end on, Miguel.